Caster Semenya - What Can I Do to Help Stop the Madness?

[Fr0thandBubble]

When I think of Caster Semenya, etc., I get SO angry. How can it be right that someone with XY chromosomes gets to compete in a women’s event? How can it be right that the World’s top 3 “women’s” 800m runners have XY chromosomes?

To me, it seems so palpably wrong. But my question is how can I help stop this? Are there pressure groups I can join? People I can write to, etc? I feel really strongly about this and hate to sit by when women athletes are pushed aside by intersex athletes (who wouldn’t have a hope in hell of competing in the men’s events).

Any sign of the op yet?

Nope. A cynical person might think that the op just posted this as a ‘gotcha’ to screen shot on Twitter.

It really sucks that Semenya cannot fairly compete against women or men
Surely Caster could compete fairly against men, because of having male biology, but would be unlikely to win medals.

There is a history to this in women's athletics with the likes of Stella Walsh and the Press sisters.

Male people without DSDs are the opposite sex to women, and cannot identify as female.
Male people with DSDs are the opposite sex to women, and cannot identify as female.

Female is a class based upon biology, and no male can identify as female, whether they have a male DSD, or whether they do not.

Female is not an identity.

Suppose a kid from the back of beyond was born and never registered or issued with a birth certificate.

Kid turns out to be a promising runner, and moves up through the age groups to U17s. But it is then discovered they are in fact 20.

"But it's not my fault I don't have a birth certificate."

Not the point. It's a race for U17s.

"But I'm small and scrawny compared to some of those huge 16 y/o's"

Not the point. It's a race for U17s.

"But I was a bit dim and kept back two years at school. I identify as a....

Still not the point.

"She has more of one hormone than women and less than men"

Not a good explanation

Steroidogenesis starts with cholesterol and converts hormones via a chain whereby a certain enzyme converts testosterone into oestrogen while a different enzyme converts testosterone into dihydrotestosterone.

In fact there are multiple versions of each enzyme which tend to be found in different parts of the body according to the specific version but otherwise do the same job.

Semenya has a genetic error whereby 5-ard type , which is one of three versions of the enzyme converting testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, is missing. DHT is important for correct formation of male genitals and has a role in things like body hair (but as noted Semenya still has 5ard type 1 and 3, since the human body is pretty good with redundancy and such like)

So Semenya did not form normal male genitals but has in fact a higher than normal level of male testosterone compared to men, because it's not converted to DHT

We don't really know for sure the full effects of missing DHT on sporting performance, but the starting position is that possessing male levels of testosterone means that women stand no chance of competing, at least comparing the best with the best, and there is literally no evidence that missing DHT is disadvantageous compared with women.

I suspect that in fact Caster Semenya has less DHT than women or a similar amount, but it's not really relevant - the point here is that Caster has more testosterone than most men, and has a level which is simply impossible for women.

"Female is a class based upon biology, and no male can identify as female, whether they have a male DSD, or whether they do not."

There are a few people where this is not quite so clear cut, e.g. someone who has CAIS is testosterone immune and who cannot develop a normal male phenotype despite having XY chromosomes and testes. There are also things like ovotesticular DSD where people may have both types of gonad tissue (though not both fertile, and often neither) and a mixture of e.g. XX and XY chromosomes

It just makes me so angry. My DS does track and cross country and I see his friends, young girls giving it their all, in the rain and the snow, all through the winter. And of course it’s not just about winning but to know that, ultimately, they have no chance at the highest level, well it’s just awful really.

And I was right behind Caster. They’ve had fantastic PR, the lying git.

I feel very sorry for Castor and people with her condition. I really do not know how the rules should be applied in their case but this is absolutely not the same as men identifying as women.

I was just listening to Jeremy Vine’s review of 2019 and the clip with Ellis Cashmore and Sharron Davies discussing Caster came up. I was so enraged I nearly crashed the car. i’m not a regular listener so hadn’t heard thai before.

Ellis basically says that that women just haven’t been trying hard enough, and in the 21st century we need to drop outdated concepts of male and female.

I cannot fathom how an intelligent person like Cashmore can convince himself of this, though it has to be said his grasp of biology was beyond shaky.

anyhoo, what happened to OP?

So, inclusion of (a genuinely minute number of) people with DSDs in a sex class which may turn out to be mistaken is nothing to do with acceptance of self-identification of sex.

Perhaps self-identifiers would like to go through extensive genetic testing in order to prove their status?

CS will have gone through a male puberty, therefore it is not right that CS should be competing against women at any sport.
Stupid articles such as the following, do not help the cause for women's sport. I really cannot believe that scientists can say testosterone does not make a difference.

www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/03/21/world/science-health-world/talent-not-testosterone-powers-intersex-athletes-scientists-say/#.XgYZGvzgqUk

an intelligent person like Cashmore

Contraversialist Git

I had to turn BBC2 off as soon as this segment started (can’t stand Jeremy Vine at the best of times) - Ellis Cashmore was on first to tell us exactly what he’s decided women are. Fuck off. So sick of this shit from the BBC - stop trying to brain wash us.

Contraversialist Git

Me or him

I know zero about him, he might be as thick as the wall for all i know, I just assumed he would need to have some kind of intelligence for his career.

Erm, I’m right here... not sure why I should want to screenshot this for Twitter?

I posted because my family and I were having a discussion about it last night and it really ruled me up! I just wanted to know how we can voice our opinions on these kind of things.

I really don’t think the ruling that XY athletes should be able to compete with women if they take testosterone suppressants is right - if they’ve grown up with male levels of testosterone, they will already have the benefit of that in terms of stature and musculature.

I used to compete in sports and a pretty high level before all this madness started. I just wondered if there was anything I can do.

Anyone who thinks I am some kind of troll (why would anyone troll about this?!) can ask Mumsnet to check my history on here. I’ve been a regular poster for at least 6 years.

*riled not ruled

I’m also a lawyer if that helps. Would love to get involved with any organisations that try to protest this sort of thing, if anyone knows of any that could use some legal help.

The screenshot for Twitter thing OP refers to trolls here trying to catch MN out with examples of 'transphobia' to get it shut down or to get particular posters banned.

Threads like this can be genuine but for very good reason posters are suspicious and it's still possible that comments here will end up on Twitter. It's happened before and so it makes sense to be cautious.

@OhHolyJesus OK thanks for explaining.

I have no idea how people can get away with saying it is transphobic for people to say it is utterly unfair that people like Caster Semenya or transsexuals get to compete as women. It genuinely makes me SO angry and I hate that people are too afraid to say it.

Well the ones who aren't afraid to say it get silenced so it sort of defeats the object of speaking out - Sharron Davies refers to this in her Hard Talk interview if you want to look it up (referring to the doping of Eastern European athletes at the time she was competing).

I would look at fairplayforwomen for more about trans athletes and for more about DSD athletes you could look at Duttee Chand as well as coverage of the leaked medical exam of Caster around 10 years ago (it appears to have vanished from my searches but it was confirmed that CS is 46XY.) For more on trans people in sport there is this https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/ and the case in Connecticut for Selina Soule who is challenging the decision to allow CeCe Tefler to compete, more on CeCe here.

https://www.outsports.com/platform/amp/2019/12/26/21034806/outsports-female-athlete-year-cece-telfer-ncaa-transgender?utmcampaign=outsports&utmmcontent=entry&utmmedium=social&utmmsource=twitter&twitterr_impression=true

Not defeats the object - I mean that by speaking out you are silenced/cancelled/banned from social media, so by speaking up about unfairness you immediately suffer the unfair consequences, and that's usually after you get told to die in a grease fire or get rape/death threats or get called a Nazi or a C*nt so you can understand why women don't say anything.

Examples are JK Rowling and the difference in the reaction to the same sentiment being expressed by Ricky Gervais.

Thank you that’s really helpful. I’ll look at all those things.

This is a pretty good article about the situation, which details how Joanna Harper unduly influenced the IOC back in 2015.

notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2019/04/09/who-really-influenced-the-ioc/

Fr0thandBubble

Dr Nic Williams of FairPlay for Women is very active about the sports aspect.

I'm sure she would welcome lawyerly input.