Buck Angel.

[FlamingoAndJohn]

I’m not sure if anyone else has posted this tweet yet. My apologies if they have, I had a quick scan but couldn’t see it. twitter.com/buckangel/status/1209236297140834304?s=21

I wonder (I genuinely have no idea) how many of these transmen currently use or attempt to use The Gents, Datun,

I can't help thinking they won't. It seems to me that lot of young women are identifying as men to opt out of the unwelcome, porn fuelled attention they're subjected to. I can't see them voluntarily accessing a male space with penises out on the basis of that.

Plus, if it was happening a lot, I'm sure you would hear a lot of complaints from the men.

I did not intend to imply that anyone was being "hypocritical".

Oops, sorry Mole — I didn't mean that part to look like a reply to something you'd said. I was thinking of the common argument of "Well if you're saying toilets should go by sex to save alarm to women, you're saying you're happy with this person [brandishes photo of Buck Angel] in the ladies'!"

It does seem like FTMs who've gone through medical transition pass better than MTFs who've done so. Testosterone is powerful stuff. It can masculinize a female body pretty well (apart from the genitalia) but it's pretty hard to roll back its effects on a male body that's gone through puberty.

Regarding trans men in women's loos; a perspective was put to me by a feminist who has worked in women's refuges and also a biologically female with a DSD who "lives as a man" (has periods - I'm not sure of the specifics and details).

He had a brief stint in prison and was initially put in the men's, then they realised their mistake but he didn't want to be moved as he was so aware of his physical appearance and that women in prison who had suffered abuse could be affected by him. In the end he was given a separate area in a men's prison and access to san pro etc. Minor offence so a short sentence. The feminist gave the same perspective.

It's difficult for me to get this straight in my head but it's a perspective that needs to be considered as so many Transmen pass well as male. And few in reality have phalloplasty. I wouldn't want a trans man in a male jail at all.

It's not a straightforward comparison to transwomen due to male violence and lack of surgery, and the basics of female biological, namely that you can become pregnant and menstruate. At the same time the effect of trauma due to male violence on some women can be so profound that a trans man's physique could potentially affect them.

I believe there should be safe third spaces and protected women's spaces.

I wouldn't want trans men to be forced into using male facilities and areas as they are still vulnerable to sexual assualt and pregnancy, especially if they don't pass well enough, and in some cases trans men transition due to trauma from past sexual abuse etc. However, that doesn't mean they should be allowed or welcomed into female spaces by default.

There's a big difference between a young female who says she's now a trans man but has cut her hair short and wears a hoodie or whatever. She is still visibly female even if she might not like to acknowledge it. I'm pretty sure most women wouldn't bat an eyelid in seeing someone like that in a single sex space.
That's very different from someone like Buck Angel who could appear quite convincingly male, at least at first glance, and this could possibly affect some women if they are unaware of him being a trans man.

Which is why I strongly support third spaces. The vast majority of the public still need and find single sex spaces useful - whether for safety or privacy. Third spaces are the ideal compromise to help trans people have access to facilities too.
Lots of pro-gender ideology people like Non binary or those who claim to be 'cis' can also use such spaces, so it's not like only trans people will benefit from third spaces.
And if it's designed well, it can be used by the wider public like a dad needing to take a daughter to the loo, for example, which could be tricky if there were only single sex facilities.

Exactly. There are loads of people who would benefit from a gender neutral space, whilst maintaining privacy for those who won't.

Women crop up on here all the time saying they don't care if men are in their space. It wouldn't be just a 'trans' space.

He had a brief stint in prison and was initially put in the men's, then they realised their mistake but he didn't want to be moved as he was so aware of his physical appearance and that women in prison who had suffered abuse could be affected by him. In the end he was given a separate area in a men's prison and access to san pro etc.

This is the massive difference. The TM mentioned here understood why he would be seen as a threat.

The problem isn’t trans people. The problem is male violence.
I agree that the need is for a third space.

Again, yes to a third space. But try not being shouted down as an exclusionary harpy for suggesting it. There is an utterly bizarre bloody mindedness involved, and I mostly see TW demanding access to single sex, and saying third space is bothering, and TM and Non binary types clamouring for neutral mixed sex spaces and an end to single sex entirely. They even have knock-down-drag-outs on Twitter over it.

And, tbh, I barely have the energy to hold the line on preserving single sex, and I've got nowt spare for any third space campaign.

Bothering = othering, obvs. My autocucumber went all Paddinton Bear on me.

I don't really give a fuck what they do TBH. Up to them. Use men's facilities, campaign for third spaces, get a catheter, don't commit crimes, whatever, knock yourselves out. Not my problem.

I'm in favour of third space. It will take a shift in thinking, just as the concept of 'the ladies' was so alien and new in the past, but I hope in the future the idea of a ladies, a gents and a mixed loo becomes the norm. This gives everyone safety, dignity and privacy. Those who don't care can share, those who do, can choose.

Oh definitely, I will continue to suggest third spaces in debates, but leave the work to others. Protecting women's single sex spaces are the main focus. It's not women's collective responsibility to sort out everyone's problem in the world.

Those who don't care can share, those who do, can choose.

Hey I like that phrase! Could be a part of the Slogans thread. :)

Those who don't care can share, those who do, can choose.

I like that too, WomanBornNotWorn ! Good riposte to "You can pee next to me!" a la Mhairi Black !

That is a very decent person Neurotrashwarrior.

You would you think that issues about toilets and prisons should be the ones that would concentrate the minds of the "confused teenager" type of transman. Particularly if their trans-trajectory has been precipitated by a wish to escape male attention.

Listening to what detransitioners say about their state of mind at that time though, practical considerations seem to be much less important than "political" motives.

I am really grateful for people in this thread engaging with this issue. It is not just the "transmen never get mentioned" aspect but that it is, as a real life consideration, such a knotty subject. Much more complex to my mind than that of TW.

Probably deserving of its own thread, but if you have not come across Laura Reynolds (detransitioner "Laura-formerly-know-as-Fritz-formerly-known-as-Laura") then her videos are well worth a watch.

Not just about the devastating impact of testosterone on her body but also some insights into her self-confessed bolshy behaviour invading gay male spaces as a transman.

This is Laura's 3rd video:

"Response to feedback and a proposal for a self-help group"

ps. SigridTheHaughty - thank you for the clarification. That explains why I was having such difficulty unravelling your comment

Sorry bout that Mole! Will have to make better use of the preview button in future (which may also help with my paragraphing issue…).

The problem with this 'living as a male' is that people can usually tell you're not really male. Merely the absence of Adam's Apple and the smaller overall frame makes it glaringly obvious.

That's very different from someone like Buck Angel who could appear quite convincingly male, at least at first glance

Got to admire the determination of some posters that no trans person ever really passes.

Got to admire the determination of some posters

Yes, there are some people who really are determined, to do something at least.

Photos are fooling, real life it's usually obvious to me.

While I'd say Buck Angel does have a somewhat feminine voice/way of speaking, if I met him in real life I daresay I'd read him as a gay man, not someone who used to be a woman.