Buck Angel.

[FlamingoAndJohn]

I’m not sure if anyone else has posted this tweet yet. My apologies if they have, I had a quick scan but couldn’t see it. twitter.com/buckangel/status/1209236297140834304?s=21

Always worth remembering that “living as a man” has been accepted legally in the UK to also mean being inseminated, carrying a pregnancy and giving birth.

OldCrone you’re preaching to the choir here and I agree with your assessment for a significant proportion of cases, but worry your post is at risk of deletion for going against the MN guidelines about generalisations. We can say our opinion is this/we believe this is the case but not state things as facts about a whole group of people. Also, I’m all about the disagreeing better thing at the moment (I wrote about a podcast I listened to www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3775210-A-Guide-to-Disagreeing-Better?msgid=92541410#92541410) and ‘assuming others’ motivations’ is a key error - we need to listen.

I’m an ex-Samaritan listening volunteer - I supported quite a few young women struggling with their gender identity after childhood sexual abuse, my understanding from listening to them was a desire to not be female stemming from a schema that if they weren’t female, they couldn’t be raped.

I think the reasons for transitioning can be many and complex; but I agree the points you make are not wrong for certain individuals.

Cwenthryth you're right, I should have been clearer that the people I was talking about were those whose primary motivation seems to be to 'live as a woman/man' in some sort of stereotypical way rather than those who have more complex issues.

I do think women who transition because they think that being a woman is such a demeaning state, are deeply misogynistic and show an utter hatred and contempt of women. It's hard for me to feel sympathetic towards such people, because their actions imply that I am an inferior being who has accepted my inferior status. Stephen Whittle fits into this category. I don't know enough about Buck Angel to comment.

There was a detransitioner thread I read on Twitter last week where the woman was saying her internalised misogyny was a large part of her transitioning

I’m totally with you on the internalised misogyny in some transmen/non-binary females thing - although I find empathy easy because I am utterly convinced that was I 20 years younger, it would be me, I have no doubt. Noticing and understanding my internalised misogyny was a lightbulb moment for me in terms of my personal development and relationship with feminism. I notice it all the time in other women now - even my own mother (although she doesn’t turn it against herself - she goes down the ‘not like other girls’ path) - not that I would point it out uninvited or tell someone that’s what I thought they were doing - but it is all pervasive in our culture, I feel.

I’m totally with you on the internalised misogyny in some transmen/non-binary females thing - although I find empathy easy because I am utterly convinced that was I 20 years younger, it would be me, I have no doubt.

I actually do feel sorry for the very young transmen/non-binary females, because I see them as victims of a toxic ideology. Not so for people like Whittle and Fox (of Fox and Owl) who seem to parade their transman status as superior to other women who in their eyes are too weak and accepting of our status to opt out of it. But perhaps once, a long time ago, they were like the young women who I feel sympathy for. But now they're part of the problem.

The thing is I am highly sceptical that trans women are treated as women. The experience they are having is not what happens to women. So Caitlyn Jenner in the jungle for example, everyone used correct pronouns etc but no one behaved/interacted with caitlyn in the way they did with the other women. It was in body language, slips in language ( not pronouns) and numerous other ways. It was interesting to watch.

Some trans women pass much better than Jenner for various reasons (not being a famous male athlete is one) and I honestly think men are both not really that good at telling and socialised into shouting down female voices. It wasn't women suddenly talking over/mansplaining to them.

Fox, who charmingly referred to homosexuals as ‘deviant’ (a.k.a trans away the gay) in one of their videos, filmed at a Mermaids children’s camp? Yeah, they come across as problematic at times, to borrow a wokester turn of phrase. Video has since been made private btw, and the gendertrender archive deleted, just a screenshot of tweets referring to it left now. They covered their tracks.

Should add internalised homophobia to possible reasons behind transition. A more personal version of the endemic societal homophobia and forced transition of homosexuals in Iran.

If I’m feeling charitable, then I might assess Whittle and his ilk as desperately trying to justify decisions they have made and things they have done - see also Susie Green for this - by demanding that the whole world agree with them. Buck, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to be demanding that. He comes across as someone I could genuinely agree to disagree with and work to find common ground to accommodate everyone. I think at least.

I wonder if what Buck means is that most people respond to him as if he’s a man, because his body has been modified to look like a man’s body

The thing is, that "living as a man" for Buck falls apart in too many scenarios.

1. Intimate relationships
2. Being on a lifelong prescription of testosterone.
3. The cosmetic surgery of intimate areas and removal of signs of your original sex to replicate the male sex
4. The public persona of being a well known transman and "most people" know this. 5)Higher risk of cancer compared to men.

Don't get me wrong, Buck is beautiful, Buck is living life to his fullest and is obviously happy. Buck is not "living as a man".
Buck is very clearly and definitely living life as a transman.

I will address this "most people respond to Buck as if he's a man" once more, in that, yeah, sure, people at first glance if they don't know Buck, will not look twice at them eg in the men's loos (an overused scenario). Will be seen as a man by staff in a restaurant, will be asked if they want a sample of aftershave rather than perfume etc.

When it comes down to it, they are entirely dependent on the opinion of strangers to prop up their entire sense of self.

And for people who interact with him to be interacting whilst lying, I cant begin to imagine how that skews the way people interact.

Buck works in porn. Living as a man includes being fucked in the "bonus hole" on camera?
I wonder how that works with vaginal atrophy?
Doesn't sound very comfortable.

It’s interesting that living as a man did not stop medical professionals dismissing Buck’s pain relating to female reproductive system. Which is an issue that many many women face. So regardless of all the other experiences where Buck is treated as a man as soon as it is about female specific issues there is no difference. No identifying out of poor female specific medical care.

Biology matters. For everyone no matter how you identify.

Has anyone seen anything about a transwoman having worse medical care post transition? Not the specific surgery relating to being trans but generic issues being dismissed more after transition? I’m curious about whether their agency is downgraded post transition.

When it comes down to it, they are entirely dependent on the opinion of strangers to prop up their entire sense of self.

This is perhaps one of the core issues of difference. Women are policed by others, be like this, look like that, approval for fitting the required attributes. Feminists say get stuffed, we don’t need your approval, we reject your conditions. We aim to help women and girls to say no I’m not going to fit your boxes I’m fine as I am, I’m comfortable with my appearance, life choices.

It’s almost a double whammy if difference. Not only are people requiring their sense of self to be validated by others they are demanding that everyone do it. It’s not going to sit well with a group that is uncomfortable with there being a single valid way to be and spent their lives pushing back against coercion.

When it comes down to it, they are entirely dependent on the opinion of strangers to prop up their entire sense of self.

I just went looking for this thread again to quote this here.

This is really what is at the heart of transgenderism, isn't it? It's about external validation of an assumed identity. It's nothing to do with being one's 'authentic self' or an internal identity. Internal identities are as valid and true for the individual regardless of what other people might think, and they don't require external approval.

I was thinking about this over Christmas as I journeyed around on the bus, where I see the word 'valid' a lot, and it occurred to me that being validated is having permission. Strikes me as a really un-feminist pursuit, to so cravenly seeking the permission of others to like what you like and be the personality you are.

You physically cannot change your sex, so there is no possible way for that to be validated, or to get permission for it. But I don't get this fragile need for validation/permission from others. Surely the most healthy goal is to accept yourself.

Video of Buck Angel telling it like it is (I have seen others but this was the first one that turned up when I searched):

twitter.com/BuckAngel/status/1146069711324450819

In case that tweet gets deleted, the original video and other videos by Buck Angel here:

www.pscp.tv/BuckAngel/

And many more on Buck Angel's YouTube Channel:

www.youtube.com/channel/UCcqbl7mdr74gqA-92muSMaw/videos

Mumsnet thread Sept 2018 about the Bust article:

"Buck Angel - a story of the dangers of trans medication"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3352661-Buck-Angel-a-story-of-the-dangers-of-trans-medication

Has there been a "We need to talk about . . . women's spaces and transmen who pass" thread already?

If not, there really needs to be some better thought put into this than, "They are female so are welcome in The Ladies".

This ignores and invalidates all the arguments that are put forward about the very presence of non-passing transwomen causing distress to some women.

Some women reckon they would always be able to tell the difference between a transman and a man. Is that so very different to Layla Moran MP and her claim that she "looks into people's souls" and "sees" a woman inside a transwoman with a male body and appearance?

Some women are happy to invite any and all transwomen into women's spaces. It is reasonable to object that they do not speak for all women and that, in particular, they ignore the feelings, fears and visceral reactions of the many women who have been traumatised, sexually assaulted or subjected to violence by men.

Transmen who pass are not obviously female so their presence is going to have to the same impact on those women.

Also, "welcoming" transmen who pass into "women's spaces" means, in effect, welcoming any and all men into "women's spaces".

Personally, I think the issue of "transmen who pass" provides such solid ground for the "Third Spaces" argument that I really cannot fathom why the "Gender Critical" response is so often, "They are female, so they are welcome".

Women's toilets were campaigned for as a facility for women specifically, so they would be able to manage their waste products when out and about, allowing them the freedom to live lives in the public sphere. They have developed to be a semi-protected space for women. Essentially, modern men's and women's toilets are a bit like sports, where the "men's" category can for many intents and purposes be treated as the open category, while the women's belongs to specifically women. If you have an unmodified body which is unambiguously biologically female i.e. one of the egg-producing varieties of human that's developed as per the usual plan and gone through the appropriate puberty etc. etc. you can compete at sport with women. Everyone who has some kind of male or masculinised advantage over that? You go in the men's/open category. Born a man? Gents/open loos. Masculinised to the extent that you are perceived as something other than a woman? Gents/open loos. Saying that it's hypocritical to want transwomen to stay out of ladies' loos if you wouldn't be happy with Buck Angel in the ladies' is setting up a false equivalency. You can disqualify yourself from ladies' loos but you can't qualify yourself into them. They aren't quite a parallel service to men's loos and it's ahistorical and lacks sophistication of thought to treat them as such.

Ye gods I have clearly been deserted by the paragraph fairy this evening. Apologies.

Masculinised to the extent that you are perceived as something other than a woman? Gents/open loos. - I agree, SigridTheHaughty

Saying that it's hypocritical to want transwomen to stay out of ladies' loos if you wouldn't be happy with Buck Angel in the ladies' is setting up a false equivalency.

I having problems unravelling that but I did not intend to imply that anyone was being "hypocritical".

I’d buy ‘Tranpa’ a drink and have a chat any day of the week. You’re never going to agree on everything but I fully appreciate Buck’s logical, rational and grown up approach. You feel like you’re bickering with toddlers half the time but Buck’s one of the rare adults in the room.

I don't think I've seen a feminist arguing that there shouldn't be third spaces. The most I've seen on FWR is that feminists are under no obligation to expend energy fighting for such facilities. The only people I've ever seen arguing against third spaces are transactivists.

The only people I've ever seen arguing against third spaces are transactivists.

FloralBunting I hop around different platforms and although I have seen this regularly ("transmen are welcome, they are female") it might not have been on FWR. I have had discussions about it with GC Feminists on Facebook and have seen it pop up regularly on Twitter but I have not engaged with it on Twitter.

It's probably because, currently, for a lot of people their experience of a transman is a confused teenage girl who merely changes her name and pronouns.

Transmen like Buck, who look very much like a man are a completely different kettle of fish.

And, of course, there is a reluctance to advocate for a woman, whatever she looks like, to have to use a male facility, in case she is detected.

Women not constituting the same threat is behind the 'they're welcome' message. But, yes, not knowing does present a problem.

Hence third spaces. They do seem to solve so many problems, it's a shame they're not more common.

I know it's not what TRAs want, but shops and services don't have to comply do they?

It's probably because, currently, for a lot of people their experience of a transman is a confused teenage girl who merely changes her name and pronouns.

I wonder (I genuinely have no idea) how many of these transmen currently use or attempt to use The Gents, Datun, and what sort of reaction they get if they do?

Makes me think . . . I have occasionally seen men on Twitter complaining along the lines of, "Saturday night the women are always using The Gents to avoid the queue at The Ladies" and I had assumed it was just regular women desperate for a pee - or they were making it up! Maybe not. Long time since I've been out clubbing of a Saturday night.