But HOW CAN YOU TELL

[KatieAlcock]

I have written something about how we perceive the difference between men and women.
I know you weren't really in any doubt, but just in case you are a little confused.

medium.com/@katieja/but-how-can-you-tell-7901324d0919

My hamster is a TERF. Loves and is all snuggly with me and DD, fluffs up and bares his teeth at DH 😂 . Bloody bigoted hamster, assuming we’re female and DH is a male in his territory. But yeah, even animals can spot the difference.

Oops, wrong thread!!

It is interesting. DD1 has SN and goes to special school. Her taxi driver was a transwoman. She finds pronouns quite tricky and tends to substitute he/she but correct herself at the best of times. Many times, she would refer to the driver as h.. she... - she knew that she was meant to call this person a she, but she would always start to say he.

This week I spoke to someone by text who referred to themselves as having a uniquely female name. Then I spoke to them on the phone and they had an unmistakably male voice. When they came to buy something from me, I saw their car driving slowly up the road and despite the driver having long blonde hair and feminine clothing, I instantly knew that they would be turning around and coming to my house. When I met them, there was no way that they passed, but even then, their handshake was a complete confirmation that they were male.

Luckily this is MN so I expect someone who has a PhD in upper body osteoefficiency in garment divestment will be along in a moment to explain

I fucking love this place.

You've been around forever Lougle so I realise you're straight-up, but I did read your post and think someone was doing a League of Gentlemen pastiche.

How come the League of Gentlemen have never been subjected to the abuse JK Rowling is getting??? I think we know.

Nauticant I know! I live in one of the least diverse villages I know, genuinely. Yet I found myself having this surreal conversation about the difficulties faced when one can't find their hairdryer and the problems that not having access to a mirror for makeup creates. The irony is that I never use a hairdryer and wear makeup about once or twice per year.

Admit it Lougle, you live in Royston Vasey don't you!

Haha

I find on screen or in photos some transwomen can look very realistic. But as soon as you see then next to an actual woman, it becomes very clear they are a man. I think oriental men are the only ones hard to tell.

@hoteltango and @WrathofFaeKlop Lynette Nusbacher. Seriously impressive military historian and theoretician. Taught at Sandhurst at one point.

And actually proves the point of this thread - my first encounter with Lynette was at a mediaeval reenactment. Everyone was in costume, and I had seen many women in male clothing throughout the day (when fighting had been taking place). I was about 100 feet away, slightly tipsy and could still identify Lynette as a trans woman. It was quite obvious.

In the words of Germaine Greer - very few pass. Many can post a profile pic that passes, but real life is a different matter. Voice and sheer size is often the giveaway irl - these are the things that alert women (particularly victims of sexual violence - which is a lot of women) to the fact that someone was born male.

It's quite difficult to explain to DD2 (she has ASD). The whole 'was born this sex but would prefer to be/feels they are this sex' is fine. But when I said that a person was coming to buy something, her first question was 'is it a man or a lady?' and my honest answer had to be 'ummm....I don't know'.

DD2 immediately said 'how can you not know?' so I said that the person had a female name but a male voice, so I thought that it was possibly a lady who used to be a man.

DD2 has been told theoretically about transsexuals but she has never met someone who was transsexual - DD1's driver never got off the bus.

Well, we're joking around here, Lougle, but it's a serious issue. Many women with ASD here have said they find the gendering/misgendering thing really difficult.

It's like 'The Emperor's New Clothes'. I'm telling DD2 that the name is female (a very unique TV character) and the voice was male, so I'm 'not sure' but I think that the person is 'possibly' a transwoman. I'm reality, I'm meeting a very obviously male person in a dress and heels with full makeup. The object they were buying was heavy, but instead of being able to say 'well you're a (clearly strong) man and I lifted this with DH so I reckon we'll be fine' I have to say 'do you think we'll be ok to lift this? I managed with my DH, so I think we may be ok...what do you think?'

I have no issue at all with calling someone a name they prefer. I have no issue at all with a man wearing stereotypically feminine clothing and makeup. I do have an issue with telling my children that this person who is clearly male, is in fact a female. I don't think that lying to them is fair.

Lying to them also doesn't help them trust their own judgement, which is the thing that keeps us safe. I find it really distressing to lie.

I read an old interview with director Neil Jordan about test screenings of "The Crying Game". He said it was striking how women instantly clocked that Dil was a man, but men were more easily fooled.

The thing I find odd is that if anything is a human social thing, it's the wearing of clothes. We're the only animals that do this.

The fact that we do and have heavily gendered societies means that people can 'dress as the opposite sex' but it's just a few bits of cloth. Without clothes on (ie in our natural state) it's pretty bloody obvious which is which.

Which is why I find this all so odd tbh. Clothes aren't natural at all, the fact we wear them and they cover our bodies with sexism layered on top is the only reason this can even be attempted.