Douglas Murray on intolerant politics

[BovaryX]

There is an interesting article by Douglas Murray in the DM about the authoritarian, identity politics which have alienated Labour voters and triggered a paradigm shift in the political landscape. It covers some of the themes which Lang GC Pencils and others have been discussing in light of election result.

It is a divide between people who have real-world concerns and those focused on niche and barely significant ones...How, you might ask, have we reached such a state? There is a clue in the Labour Party’s dysfunctional reaction to its catastrophic defeat on Thursday

Kith - yes, I guess I'm looking for new kith because Londoners are scattered so far away and that's why I joined the local church.

I sometimes think politicians only see communities in terms of "this sexuality" "this religion" etc which is such a load of rubbish.

we did have much stronger community links in my London burb 20 years ago but sadly everything changed, for many reasons.

Just a warning about the phrase "kith and kin".

It may feel completely neutral to many, and I'm not saying it shouldn't ever be used, BUT be aware that during the 1960s and 1970s it was used extensively when discussing white Rhodesians (many of whom were very recent, UK-born, settlers) after Rhodesia had made the Unilateral Declaration of Independence in 1965 specifically so it could remain a white supremacist state.

From the UK point of view, we were reluctant to take military action against Rhodesia, because it was against "kith and kin". And from the Zimbabwe independence movement's point of view, they were reluctant to trust the UK on anything, assuming (with good reason) that we would unofficially retain loyalty to white Rhodesians over black Zimbabweans.

It's very laden with racist connotations to anyone familiar with this history. Which is a lot of people in the UK – even more since the early 2000s, when a lot of Zimbabweans came here during the civil unrest and economic collapse.

So depending who you're talking to, they may interpret it as you dogwhistling about white supremacism.

In fact I can't hear it at all without the same sort of twitch I get when someone says, "North London metropolitan elite", which is widely used as antisemitic code for "Jews".

My reaction is: "Was that an innocent, unaware use? Or was that a use deliberately freighted with these other meanings? Or a bit of both, because someone's picked up, and wants to propagate, a pejorative connotation – even though they don't know understand quite how it's pejorative?"

I sometimes think politicians only see communities in terms of "this sexuality" "this religion" etc which is such a load of rubbish.

It suits politicians to do this. I am extremely familiar with the practise being from a place with a clear, in your face, religious divide which the Labour and Tory parties have sought to exploit to lesser or greater degrees depending on the 'zeitgeist' of the moment.

Weirdly of recent times I've been wondering if living with clear division is such a bad thing after all. I've always had to accept people who think very differently from me, accept people's right to hold and express their beliefs in a very public manner, make my peace with people who do think differently still being decent people and with decent people making wrong assumptions about me because of the nature of our society. Despite the divisions we mostly all rub along together. We can manage to still be there for each other regardless of differences. It isn't that hard.

Could do without politicians shit stirring though.

It's very laden with racist connotations to anyone familiar with this history. Which is a lot of people in the UK – even more since the early 2000s, when a lot of Zimbabweans came here during the civil unrest and economic collapse.

I didn't know this, so thank you.

Perking "In fact I can't hear it at all without the same sort of twitch I get when someone says, "North London metropolitan elite", which is widely used as antisemitic code for "Jews"."

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I thought I was probably considered that, but that was before I knew it was being used as antisemitic code. Le sigh.

I get a similar twitch at "TIM" in GC vs trans lingo because to me it says sectarianism, not genderism.

'when someone says, "North London metropolitan elite", which is widely used as antisemitic code for "Jews"."'

Is it? I can see how it would have come about, but surely these days it mainly means Corbyn and his gang?

You may well be considered "North London metropolitan elite", AutumnRose.

I'm quite sure the phrase is also widely used as a pejorative by people who don't know the antisemitic connotation of it – they just know it as a pejorative.

So a nice win for the antisemites in mainstreaming use of their language (not as a reclamation of that language, but to draw people in without them realising where the discussion is tending).

And a reality-check needed for those not intending any antisemitism but casually tossing round pejorative stereotypes they've picked up from others, because they sounded good for a quick sneer...

Commes vous dites, le sigh.

So depending who you're talking to, they may interpret it as you dogwhistling about white supremacism

Hmm. I googled this phrase because I had never heard of this interpretation of it. I then googled it with the addition of Zimbabwe and found a story from 17 years ago in the Telegraph. If there’s a community of white supremacists using this phrase to dog whistle each other? They must be a tiny minority. For everyone else, the phrase is not laden with any racist connotations. As for the unfortunate population of Zimbabwe? They are facing far more serious problems than the meaning of an archaic English phrase
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/1416167/Mugabe-issues-new-threat-to-white-kith-and-kin-over-Wests-hostility.html

North London metropolitan elite

I confess that I did not know this either. My brother lives in North London and is a Corbynista as are most of his academic contemporaries.

It is not a phrase I ever use tbf but genuinely had no idea of the connotations. I wonder if this is far more apparent to Londoners who may know where various communities are concentrated than to people in the rest of the country?

I get a similar twitch at "TIM" in GC vs trans lingo because to me it says sectarianism, not genderism.

Me too. 'Tim' was one of the few words that were banned in my house when the children were growing up. See also 'hun'.

'Meteropolitan elite' has long been an anti-Semitic dog whistle but one people often seem oblivious too. Comments about bankers are also often dubious on that front. There is an awful lot of ignorance around the centuries old persecution of Jewish people.

Arnold "There is an awful lot of ignorance around the centuries old persecution of Jewish people."

Being friends with quite a few Jewish people, I don't know I'd call it ignorance. It may be that before the hell of identity politics arrived, things were better and therefore less discussion came up.

Honestly, when I told my Jewish neighbour (who is a good mate) that the North London met elite was apparently code, she didn't know either.

Is this perhaps the worst thing social media has done to discourse - lots of hidden phrases that you don't know unless you're glued to it all day?

I feel as if "ignorant" or "uneducated" is the new acceptable insult.

Try googling it using "Rhodesia" instead of "Zimbabwe" – I found plenty when I checked before writing that post.

Eg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia
www.independent.co.uk/news/military-chiefs-reviewed-plan-to-invade-rhodesia-1321929.html

Any Zimbabwean old enough (and probably many who weren't) will recognise it.

The point isn't just whether white supremacist use it; it's that people on the receiving end of, or even just knowledgeable about, this particular manifestation of racism will recognise it, and will wonder what you're actually trying to say here. If you don't mind them suspecting you might be a white supremacist and therefore interpreting everything else you say through the prism of that suspicion, then crack on. You may find yourself being misunderstood for reasons you can't fathom...

I’m a Londoner.

North London Metropolitan Elite to me means the Granita years Islington luvvies set but that probably ages me. I’ve used it that way myself.

I accept that it may be a dogwhistle for antisemitism but I must say that connotation had passed me by and I was quite secure in my knowledge that this was a reference to New Labour luvvies until I saw the David Baddiel comment on it.

If you don't mind them suspecting you might be a white supremacist and therefore interpreting everything else you say through the prism of that suspicion, then crack on

Hmm. So you haven’t been able to produce any evidence for your arcane interpretation of the phrase? As for being a white supremacist? Unlikely. I am not white. I am unimpressed by your attribution of racist connotations where they don’t exist.

"North London Metropolitan Elite to me means the Granita years Islington luvvies set"

not where I live, but where I worked/the type of people I worked with, for years and years. I'm 43.

I only found out about the dog whistle thing a couple of years ago.

I am glad that I found this out. I shall ask my brother about it too.

Lang
I would just like to agree with your post about this thread. It has been full of interesting discussion and largely free from the political tribalism which dominates other forums. It has been great fun

Also, any non-Zimbabwean Brit old enough to have repeatedly heard "kith and kin" used on the news in this context, may have this connotation, even if only subconsciously.

Using it may tap into that, and you may inadvertently issue a racist dogwhistle that you had no idea you were doing.

You'll have to make your own decisions about what language to use.

I'm just letting you know what a large number of others may hear.

You'll have to make your own decisions about what language to use

I absolutely will. I don’t require my linguistic choices to be policed by anyone else

Perking I appreciate the info.

It does underline my feeling that I shouldn't discuss politics or anything really major with anyone other than my mum and best mate!

Is this perhaps the worst thing social media has done to discourse - lots of hidden phrases that you don't know unless you're glued to it all day?

Antisemites referring to Jews as wealthy or (in modern parlance) metropolitan elites is much older than social media, as are sneering references to bankers. They go way back to the era when Christians were not permitted to be money lenders and Jews were banned from many other professions.

They are behaviours, dog whistles, call them what you will that have cropped up time and again across Europe. I genuinely think a lot of people are ignorant of the history of Jewish persecution and the reasons why there is a connection between Jewish people and certain professions. It isn't something that is generally taught. Anti-semites know it though and they know how to manipulate people's annoyance over economic failures, or disquiet at Israeli policies. You do see a lot of it online from left and right, but historic pogroms against Jewish people have always played on similar themes.