Piers Morgan
Susanna Reid
Sal Brinton
PM: ... Are you identifying as a woman today?
SB: I certainly am, Piers.
PM: You are. How many sexes do you think there are?
SB: [sigh] Right. There are ... there are a number of sexes, men and women and there are those who are intersex. And you're moving onto the debate about trans?
PM: Yes, the debate where - Jo Swinson's position, in her effort to be super woke ...
SR: She was asked what a woman is by a caller.
PM: We've got a clip, I think, of the interview. She was just asked a straightforward question, what's a woman?
==================================
[CLIP FROM BBC 5LIVE]
Jo Swinson
Anna in Warwickshire
AiW: Please can you tell me what a woman is?
JS: [pause] Um, well ... er, I know I'm a woman, and, er ... and I think we do - we - we know - er, what - what we are. And I think all women are important and their rights need to be protected ... whether they are black, asian, white, whether they are gay or straight or bi, whether they have a very privileged upbringing or whether they don't have much money, whether they are cis or trans, whether they have a disability ... we are all important in all of those different ways.
AiW: So how can you tell what a woman is?
JS: [pause] Well, I mean I'm - I'm just sort of ... trying to understand, you know, what you're getting at. I think - I think we know, when we engage with each other - when - you know, we know if we're a woman, right? And we know, you know ...
AiW: Yep.
JS: ... and I can tell you that I am, right? So ... and - and - you know, we're not going to start a scenario where we go and, you know, perform inspections on people, are we?
[END OF CLIP]
PM: Now, she went on to say that self-identity should be respected and that the Liberal Democrats actually want to change the law so that anyone can basically go, 'I'm a woman' and that should be totally respected, to the degree that anyone that does that is then able to use all facilities available to women.
SR: Single sex spaces.
PM: Whether they be, you know, single sex loos or whatever it may be. Do you agree with that?
SB: Er ... interestingly, this is what the government was consulting on in the summer ...
PM: But do you agree with it?
SB: Absolutely I do ...
SR: They rejected it.
SB: ... No, they've postponed it, they just stopped. They didn't reject it, they just stopped.
PM: Anyone can say 'I'm a woman' and your position is they're a woman?
SB: There - if we ...
PM: Yes or no?
SB: ... it is - you can't just say yes or no ...
PM: You can, actually. You can.
SB: ... no, no, the issue ...
PM: Self identity these days is out of control. It means that anyone now can literally go, 'I'm a woman', or 'I'm a man' if they're born biologically to a female body, can just go, 'I am something else' and everything apparently, according to the Liberal Democrats, you have to respect that so much that you then damage women's rights ...
SB: If you talk ...
PM: ... to accommodate people going, 'I'm a woman'.
SB: There is no way that accepting that trans women, who have usually come on a very long and difficult journey before they've even got to the point of wanting to identify as a woman, many of them have mental health crises including suicide attempts, all of those things. As Liberal Democrats we stand up for the rights of individuals, and one of the problems ...
PM: One in 50 male prisoners right now is self identifying as female, some of them are being transferred to women's prisons as a result. That, many would argue, is an attack on women's rights.
SB: The prison service has very strict rules of risk assessment for these prisoners and they are supposed to make sure that before a trans woman is moved to a women's prison, that they've done a risk assessment for the safety of the women in those prisons and ...
PM: But do you think there's a difference between somebody who goes through ...
SB: ... let me just finish. If there is any risk at all, either they're not moved or they are kept in a separate unit.
PM: We've actually already had male prisoners identifying as women and then attacking women when they get transferred to female prison.
SB: And the prison service apologised because they had not done the risk assessment ...
PM: Right, well, you see?
SB: That doesn't make the whole thing wrong.
PM: How many genders do you think there are?
SB: [sigh] There are at least two because of the issue of intersex and trans.
PM: Well the BBC is now lecturing children that there are over 100. Do you agree with that?
SB: I - I have no idea of the detail of those 100.
PM: It was a BBC educational video informing children there are now over 100 genders.
SB: Without seeing it, I can't get into it.
PM: Well it was a big story, you must have been aware of it.
SB: No, no - the hundred. I mean, I ...
PM: Do you think there are a hundred genders?
SB: I think that there are people who certainly feel extremely concerned about their gender and that's why - you know, I mean I ...
PM: But do we respect any - my point is, do we, as Jo Swinson seemed to suggest, do we simply accept anyone can identify as any gender they see fit? Given that one of the 100, by the way, is an affinity with the stars. In the - well you're laughing, but this is serious.
SB: Well, as I said, I haven't ...
PM: They are astra-something, right, which is a gender where you feel an affinity with the planets and the stars.
SB: I ...
PM: And then do we change laws ...
SB: I have no ...
PM: ... to accommodate people who have an affinity to the stars? These are serious questions.
SB: I think the serious question is how we treat each other and the problem with this debate has been that trans women in particular have been absolutely demonised and vilified by ...
PM: Actually a lot of ...
SB: ... a small group of feminist women.
PM: ... a lot of trans women who have gone through the process that you discussed earlier, right? The physical, psychological, emotional transition, they feel as incensed as anybody else by this self identity explosion, because it is, as you - when you laughed at the idea of affinity with the planets, but that's not a laughable thing, it's one of the 100 genders the BBC wants to tell children they can identify as. And then the Liberal Democrats, according to Jo Swinson, they want to change all sorts of laws to allow anyone who goes, 'I'm a woman' to then go into women's spaces. And a lot of women feel very uncomfortable about this.
SB: So, women's refuges ...
PM: Why aren't you standing up for women?
SB: Well we are - we do stand up for women and that's why ...
PM: You're not though, are you?
SB: ... Jo said very clearly in that interview, you have to do risk assessments and if there's any threat ...
PM: But Jo Swinson was - Jo Swinson was effectively putting the rights of self identifying women, who've maybe in some cases not transitioned in any sense at all, other than going 'I'm a woman', above the rights of biologically born women.
SB: We have to respect the rights of all people within, obviously, sensible reason, and the problem - the reason this has exploded is because trans women, in particular, have not had their rights respected ...
PM: OK.
SB: ... that's not just the ...
PM: You just sat here five minutes ago and said there are two genders. Have you told that to the transgender community?
SB: No, I didn't say two genders actually ...
PM: Yes you did.
SB: ... what I said was ...
SR: At least ...
SB: ... at least two ...
PM: How many do you think there are?
SB: ... I referred to intersex ...
PM: But that's sex not gender, they're two different things
SB: ... and also non-binary. I think if you read the expert articles, you will dis- ...
PM: Sex and gender are two different things.
SB: No, no, no, intersex is also about gender. If you look at babies who are born, one of the problems we've had in the past is that doctors have often operated on them far too early.
PM: So when you said there are two genders, what did you actually mean?
SB: Well, Piers - that there are - there's at least two. I think the point ...
PM: How many are there?
SB: ... the point is, if there are concerns about risk, in single sex spaces ...
PM: I get it, I just wonder ...
SB: ... you've got to do risk assessments. That's absolutely important.
PM: I get it. But Jo Swinson believes anyone can self identify as anything, I just wonder what you, as the president of the party, how many genders are there that you respect and honour? And think [inaudible]
SB: I don't - it isn't a numbers game. I respect and honour ...
PM: The BBC says there's over 100.
SB: ... people. I am not the BBC. I am not the BBC.