Lesbian social group under attack

[thatdamnwoman]

I occasionally attend a lesbian social group that meets at a couple of local venues each month. It was started a few years ago by a woman who invited a group of friends and acquaintances and has grown to several hundred women. Maybe 20-50 meet at any one time and it's mainly word of mouth or the occasional 'How about meeting at XX? on Thursday?' type stuff via FB.

So far it seems, barring one odd encounter, to have been lesbian and bi women only, with the odd attention-seeker asserting themselves as non-binary and being tolerated with a lot of eye-rolling. Now a couple of those who attend once in a blue moon have gone on the attack and demanded that transpeople not only be permitted to attend but that the woman who started the group and administers the FB page add T to the description of the group and add a statement welcoming transpeople.

You're here on Feminism Chat, so you can imagine how it's going. Three lesbian TRAs telling everyone who doesn't agree that they are stupid and terfs, half-a-dozen non-feminist women saying 'Let's just be lovely and welcome anyone/everyone who turns up to our lesbian event' versus a couple of older radfems with nothing much to lose saying what we say on here every day. And then 300+ lesbian women sitting at home watching this play out in dismay and wondering whether they next time they turn up for an evening with the lezzers at the pub they're going to have to sit next to someone with a beard who wants to talk about their new life as a woman.

The TRAs are saying it's illegal under the Equalities law for lesbian women in a friendship group that meets in public places to exclude transpeople. I am sure it isn't but when I turned to a couple of people who I thought knew more than me, they started saying 'Ah, well... it's a grey area' and then seem to tie themselves into knots.

Is it? Is there any reason a bunch of self-selecting people who use the title* 'Xtown Lesbian and Bi women's social group' and meet voluntarily in public places are legally required to add T to their title?

No, but what if the 40 year old had a certificate that for at least legal purposes made him 6 year old?

Voila! And there lies the problem

No, but what if the 40 year old had a certificate that for at least legal purposes made him 6 year old?

I see what you mean and my answer is still no 😉
We can’t have a system of equal rights but where some are more equal than others, we can’t force people to partake in other people’s individual belief systems.

Thanks for the legal reassurance. Took me so long to reply that you'd supplied it before I saw it! Although I do know about protected characteristics etc there's something about having another lesbian telling me that I'm wrong about women's rights that really throws me off balance.

I've got friends in this group who are also thinking that we need to be bold and start an explicitly female-only, lesbian-only, gender critical group so that women have the choice and I guess that's what we'll be organising this weekend. It'll be interesting to see how the numbers pan out. I'm quietly confident that we can take most of those in this group with us if we wanted to. Most women haven't fallen for this bull.

Three lesbian TRAs telling everyone who doesn't agree that they are stupid and terfs, half-a-dozen non-feminist women saying 'Let's just be lovely and welcome anyone/everyone who turns up to our lesbian event'

So it sounds to be me like 40+ women are clearly not interested, it makes you wonder why they want to join your club in the first place?

I do wonder if changing the name would cover your arses suitably? Or just "Becky's friends" or whatever the name of group organiser is called.

And no, you should not have to do anything like the above but when using your own name on Fb sometimes you need to make your life easier.

I've got friends in this group who are also thinking that we need to be bold and start an explicitly female-only, lesbian-only, gender critical group so that women have the choice and I guess that's what we'll be organising this weekend. It'll be interesting to see how the numbers pan out. I'm quietly confident that we can take most of those in this group with us if we wanted to. Most women haven't fallen for this bul

You don't even need to be gender critical. You could be quite happy to "accept someone's gender" or whatever the hell that means and still n be a female vagina fetishist and you should have every right to meet other people in that situation.

I think the most depressing element is the people who say in private to my face that they are GC and are worried about the trans issue but then immediately something like this kicks off feel they have to go on FB saying 'We need to be kind to everyone and open to diversity.' They don't have to say anything but they do.

As my partner said this morning, it's the awful knowledge that you're surrounded and out-shouted by idiots and women who've cunningly fooled you about being feminists all these years.

I think the most depressing element is the people who say in private to my face that they are GC and are worried about the trans issue but then immediately something like this kicks off feel they have to go on FB saying 'We need to be kind to everyone and open to diversity.' They don't have to say anything but they do.

One of the ways I have figured out who was gc of my feminist friends was who was surprisingly silent on the trans issue. I couldn't respect that kind of hypocrisy and I do realise that people are nervous but that's pathetic.

But my question is still hanging. Is it legal for a group of women who meet in an informal and voluntary way to seek to exclude people who say they are women, even though we don't regard them as as such?

Of course it's legal! Nobody has to be friends with anybody they don't want to be friends with.

If it was an official registered club and you wanted it to specifically exclude men and trans women you could do via the EA exemptions - there would have to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim to exclude the trans women. Does the club cater for sensitive women's issues or things specific only to biological females? Or is it say a walking group? That would make a difference but again only if it's an official club.

It's tricky with an informal group if some people are happy to welcome them.

As an aside, several hundred lesbians and bi women belonging to one club is very impressive! I live in a place well known for its LGBT community and I'm part of a similar type of club. It is trans inclusive but we've never had any trans women approach the club, it's only ever attracted FTM and female non binary people. Just had our annual Christmas party and there was only about 30 of us.

OP, I'm not a lesbian so feel free to tell me to butt out, however having recently been to the launch of the Detransitioners Advocacy Network I have strong views on this. I think it is absolutely a hill worth dying on, and is probably the most important thing that older lesbians can do at the moment- preserve and promote lesbian spaces.

All the young detransitioned women said that one of the main reasons they had decided to transition was because it was easier for them to imagine themselves growing up as a man than it was as a gay woman. They couldn't picture themselves as adult gay women because they have no older lesbian role models. The loss of lesbian spaces has contributed to this because there is nowhere young women can go and see women like them.

A generation of lesbians has been lost because of the T and the Q incursion into the LGBT. Existing lesbian spaces must be held, and new ones for young women provided. This cannot be planned if you all have to spend your time being polite to trans women.

Have you thought of speaking to the women at "Get the L Out"? They could probably advise you further.

I wish I could help on this issue more but as a middle aged straight woman there's only so much that I can do.

Hold your ground. ✊🏽

Great post Tinsel

OP I suggest you take the lead from this group and make it similarly clear on your group's website / Facebook page:

swollows.wordpress.com/home/about/

(Or your new group if necessary)

To add to Tinsel's post (and also as someone who isn't same sex attracted) might this be something that the LGB Alliance could give advice on? I know they haven't officially launched yet, but aim to in January IIRC

...'born women'. Simple, clear, surely can't be challenged. Like it.

The TRAs are saying it's illegal under the Equalities law for lesbian women in a friendship group that meets in public places to exclude transpeople.

They are wrong. Lesbians have two protected characteristics;

• sex
• sexual orientation.

The Equality Act defines a lesbian as a woman who is same sex attracted.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9

Hate incidents and hate crime are acts of violence or hostility directed at people because of who they are or who someone thinks they are.
For example, you may have been verbally abused by someone in the street because you’re disabled or someone thought you were gay.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/

Private groups as far as I know have always been legally allowed to exclude anyone they want to, for any reason. That's kind of the point of them being private.

This all sounds a bit hyperbolic. A private group of friends can invite whomever they want. You’re not government funded - this idea you could be forced to include certain people? Ridiculous.

Thank you yet again for the legal advice.

Tinsel, I'm touched by your post. I'm approaching the kind of age one expects to retire and am fortunate enough to have grown up as part of quite a lively and varied lesbian culture but I'm aware that all that has gone now. Even Michigan. There used to clubs and pubs run by women mainly for women, gay clubs and pubs where women could be sure that women they met there were also lesbian and so on. There have been exclusively lesbian festivals and camps and celebrations – and of course once you go to one, you learn of all the others. Most of them are now extinct, many because of threats from the trans lobby.

The lesbians I socialise with are mainly over 40, partly because people tend to prefer to socialise within a narrowish age range but also because younger women haven't grown up with the kind of lesbian-only culture that we did, nor with the radfem influence. We all know and celebrate how lucky we are to be part of such groups. We found our tribe, I suppose, and we know how fortunate we are. I think we might scare some younger women.

I'll see, when we set up this born-women group, that any young women who want to join us will be very welcome and that we will try to help them set up and run their own group(s) if they wish. I'm just generally aware of the age gap and what tedious old bores some of us may seem to younger women. I sat for a while with a young lesbian at a recent lesbian event and we tried to find shared ground, but her life is a million times removed from mine now or even when I was her age and we didn't seem able to find much in common to talk about.

But we could certainly, us old dolls, set up a few events or opportunities for younger lesbians and let them get on with it.

I also attended the event that Tinsel has so eloquently described and it seems to me that there is a generation of young lesbians desperate for the kind of women-only clubs and and events of your youth.
Please hold the line for their sake! Us straight feminists will stand in solidarity with you and help in whatever way we can, but lesbian culture is unique and deserves to be preserved.
I suspect it’s more vital than ever.

I've just re-read the OP.

So the group hasn't actually been approached by any trans women wishing to attend? It's only a few existing lesbians in the group who wish to hypothetically include them?

I think stating the group is 'under attack' is a little bit of an exaggeration

I've been a member of a gay running group and lesbian book club for years that are explicitly trans inclusive - not had a single trans person turn up.

It's likely you're tying yourself in knots over something that won't happen.

There is a simple solution - if a trans woman does turn up then the women who wanted to include trans women are the ones who sit beside the trans woman in the pub.

On the other hand, if someone posted on facebook or wrote (or perhaps even just says) to someone who identifies as a transgender woman to say that they are not welcome at such a meeting because in your opinion they are a man and therefore cannot be a lesbian then this could be deemed as a hate crime.

No-not a hate crime. It is not a criminal offence to say those words in that context. There is no criminal offence that would cover what is said above.

Remember, a “hate crime” is something that is a criminal offence so you must be able to say which actual law is broken. No criminal offence Involved - no hate crime.

Possibly you mean a “hate incident” but absolutely not a hate crime

I've only skim-read this thread on my lunch break so apologies if someone has already shared this link but there is EHRC guidance here:

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/equalityguidance-associationclubsociety-2015-final.docx

It sounds from what you've posted like it's an informal friendship group without written rules, in which case it's outside the scope of the Equality Act, but you'll be in a better position to judge as you know the full facts.

*Sorry I should have said without "formal" rules. If you have formal but unwritten rules then you are potentially caught by the Act.

Now a couple of those who attend once in a blue moon have gone on the attack and demanded that transpeople not only be permitted to attend but that the woman who started the group and administers the FB page add T to the description of the group and add a statement welcoming transpeople.

Ok, well the answer to that is simple. The next time these women turn up, they can stand up in front of the entire group and say they are forming their own trans inclusion group, and see who attends. The reason why they won't want to do that though (I suspect), is because they want to milk the contacts you've made over the years and dictate that the group turns into something that no one ever signed up to.

Now usually, if it were a business or something like that, I wouldn't have such simple opinions on these matters. I don't always think 'well start your own 'xyz', but for this one, it's simple. It doesn't cost anything to start their own group and meetings on Facebook. In fact, encourage them and welcome them to make such an announcement in your group and say that you encourage all kinds of lesbian groups. People are free to attend either one.

With regards to the law, the info below via the link is what I've found. It's not very helpful though, and it's quite contradictory. In one place it says you are allowed to exclude based on sex in xyz circumstance, but then underneath it says you're NOT allowed if someone identifies as that sex....which makes sex based legal exceptions meaningless!!! This is only applicable if you are offering goods or service though. Considering that you are in informal social group who just uses Facebook to get the word out on when you are meeting, it may not apply to you.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services/discrimination-in-the-provision-of-goods-and-services1/goods-and-services-what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/what-doesn-t-count-as-unlawful-discrimination-in-goods-and-services/single-sex-and-separate-services-for-men-and-women-when-discrimination-is-allowed/

Whilst these women may think their requests are noble, it's this kind of thing that will put off women, lesbian or otherwise, from going to and forming women only groups.

I've seen women's support groups for health conditions that only happen in female bodies driven underground like this by a few TRAs attacking demanding that it all redefine itself to 'this health condition can happen to women and men', change all their language, open themselves up to T membership (all TW, not TM incidentally, who would have been welcome anyway) and mostly what the TRAs wanted to do was take leadership and centre all discussion around TW medical issues, ie ending the purpose and function of the original group and it being any use to the women who set it up.

TRAs frequently deliberately seek out female centred groups to do this.

I’d simply be asking what they might expect someone to do if they aren’t welcomed into a group. It’s a friendship group of loosely associated people, who could possibly get sued, and for what? Any solicitor would laugh them out of the building. It would be like the woman down the road suing me for not inviting her when my friends come round for a coffee and a natter.

I wish people would stop tying themselves in knots over this. Simply tell them to fuck off and sue if they like. If some women don’t mind including TW then crack on, create your own group, but we don’t in this one. They’re unofficial friendship groups, not businesses or public bodies.