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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Newsnight now

131 replies

bellabelly · 04/12/2019 23:04

Emily Maitliss grilling Sarah Wollaston (LD) about gender self-id. Good!

OP posts:
LangCleg · 05/12/2019 19:25

thatdamnwoman - I'm a serial emailer too and completely agree with what you say about it. Inboxes mean something - particularly when it's clear that viewers/readers are independently noticing the little things, not just the big things that created the latest social media furore.

Michelleoftheresistance · 05/12/2019 19:40

On Newsnight she said "if there is somebody who is clearly not transitioning, who is somebody who is very obviously still physically male changing within a group setting in a female changing room, that's inappropriate because it makes people feel uncomfortable"

So she gets it to that extent. That there's an issue of women understandably feeling uncomfortable around a biological male in this way, and she says that's not ok.

What she hasn't clicked on is that she's thinking Jazz Jennings, India Willoughby, and this is not the reality she is enabling to happen. She needs to do a lot of unpacking and a lot more research.

It's any male. At any stage of transition or not. There's no gate keeping, and women having feelings of discomfort is absolutely not ok or not something permitted to them.

And for many women, no matter what the stage of transition, they are still going to feel uncomfortable. What then? When do their feelings stop mattering? Who decides? What about the women who are not able to use any space with any male at any stage of transition? What about provision for them, is it ok to exclude them?

I don't think Sarah would agree it's ok, but Sarah is forcing this agenda forward and representing a Rape Crisis that prioritises the need of male people to be included and treated in female centres even at the expense and exclusion and trauma of those females. Not because their needs cannot be met in any other way, but because the presence of those females in a female only space even at the expense of those females is so important to those males.

As a PP said - Sarah's never going to square this circle.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2019 19:49

I have a friend who works for the BBC in a role where they are connected well. I've been drip dripping for about 2 years but said something a couple of months ago where I think the penny dropped with them. They are otherwise woker than woke and 'why can't we all be nice', but they know me well enough to realise I'm not a raving loon nor bigot and I do have legit concerns.

They've never actively said their position on the subject but a couple of comments have suggested they are fed up with the constant 'we need someone trans for segment' mentality.

I do think there is widespread disillusionment in the BBC ranks on this and its starting to get traction. But it has to get past niche programming after 10pm to make any tangible difference.

That has to start with simply asking the question why they are supporting Stonewalls homophobic definition of homosexuality. It lays it bare.

stumbledin · 05/12/2019 20:02

Hadn't realised but there was a web chat with Lib Dem Phillip Lee which Pink News (who else) somehow made mumsnetters challenging him of self ID and possible MNHQ censoring a car crash that they could celebrate??????

Webchat www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/3758248-Webchat-with-Dr-Phillip-Lee-LibDem-candidate-for-Wokingham-on-Tuesday-3-December-at-2pm

Reaction to web chat thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3759424-Dr-Philip-Lee-LibDem-candidate-shows-us-who-he-is

DoctorTwo · 05/12/2019 20:02

I don't understand why the Lib Dems are pushing this so hard after the Challenor fiasco.

myfavouriterain · 05/12/2019 20:49

You are kidding
Woke-ingham?
🤣

ChattyLion · 05/12/2019 21:29

Not RTFT so apologies if this has already been said but Sarah Wollaston was chair of the influential Health and social care select committee, until the committee was dissolved for the general election:
www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/health-and-social-care-committee/news/2017-membership/

SW was sent concerns about medical, hormonal and surgical transitioning of children and safeguarding so it seems very unlikely that she is ignorant of the issues in play here, more likely that she was speaking her political beliefs.
Great that Emily Maitlis has been holding it all up to the light though.

IWantADifferentName · 05/12/2019 21:31

Sarah Wollaston clearly does not understand the concept of self guarding.

Emily Maitlis gets it. She talks about the law and Sarah Wollaston talks about behaviour. There was a lot more that EM could have called SW out on but I guess they just didn’t have the time.

I would like to see people recognise that the issue is less about ‘poor, victimized trans people’ and more about the law of unintended consequences that will be fully exploited by people who may not be trans but can say they are and can then get away with (figurative and possibly literal) murder.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 05/12/2019 22:02

I'm so glad that someone as intelligent and level headed as Emily Maitlis gets it. She really does get it doesn't she? I love her! I wonder if she has been on here?

SarahTancredi · 05/12/2019 22:46

Sarah Wollaston clearly does not understand the concept of self guarding

See as I said before I refuse to believe this. If she has children or nieces or nephews, or a parent in a nursing home, same goes for all these politicians many will have children etc. Many would have at some point gone onto school to complain about someone hanging around outside, or asked the nurse at the home/ hospital why their elderly parent was left alone, bet they have all told their kids to not wander off or talk to strangers or knock on that weirdo at number 5s house on Halloween. They all know they cant photograph their kids in the school play, all probably have settings on their laptops or phones the kids use. Every single last one of them has probably been in a situation where they have had to di some kind.if instant mental risk assessment as to where they go or what they do. There is no way on this planet they haven't figured this one thing out. No way.

stumbledin · 05/12/2019 22:47

I don't understand why the Lib Dems are pushing this so hard after the Challenor fiasco.

On the thread about Lib Dems actively discouraging gender critical voters someone has posted a link to a tweet from Jean Hachet which says one of the main funders of the Lib Dems is health company that specialised in surgery for trans patients.

Tweet twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/1202625641360871424?s=19

Thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3737757-Lib-Dems-actively-deterring-GC-women?pg=28

OldCrone · 05/12/2019 22:53

health company that specialised in surgery for trans patients.

As I said on the other thread, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that.

Jux · 05/12/2019 22:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn - posted on wrong thread.

teawamutu · 05/12/2019 23:10

Have you seen Emily Maitlis' tweet?

twitter.com/maitlis/status/1202651755441508354

YellaHumberElla · 06/12/2019 09:54

Yes! EM is onto it.

ChessIsAsBoringAsCricket · 06/12/2019 10:15

Emily M’s tweet is causing ructions. It wasn’t remotely transphobic, but the Twitter TRA’s are very unhappy.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 06/12/2019 10:18

Emily M’s tweet is causing ructions. It wasn’t remotely transphobic, but the Twitter TRA’s are very unhappy.

They are unhappy because they know the wheels are coming off. They know that women are seeing this for what it is and aren't going to just roll over and accept it.

IWantADifferentName · 06/12/2019 10:24

If you read the comments, the majority of criticism seems to be from people who didn’t actually read or understand her original tweet.

theflushedzebra · 06/12/2019 10:56

Wow Jean Hatchet! Bloody well sleuthed!

Tell me, Jo Swinson, how we are not supposed to conclude that you're in donor's pockets now?

Jo Swinson has just described herself as an "enthusiastic feminist" on R4 Woman's Hour - although she hasn't managed to get sexual harrasser Rennard out of the LibDems yet, nor get him removed from the Campaign trail....

Worth listening to Swinson on WH this morning - Emma Barnett wiped the floor with her.

OldCrone · 06/12/2019 11:00

Wow Jean Hatchet! Bloody well sleuthed!

I don't think so. See what's been said about it on this thread this morning.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3737757-Lib-Dems-actively-deterring-GC-women?pg=28

Trewser · 06/12/2019 11:16

Has EM deleted her tweet

theflushedzebra · 06/12/2019 11:28

No, the tweet is still there.

Oldcrone - yes, caution here is advisable - but also a 100K donation last month from a pharmaceutical company that produces puberty blocking drugs. Does look a bit suspect.

theflushedzebra · 06/12/2019 11:33

Also, Emily's tweet has by no means been "ratioed" Grin Over 1000 retweets, and nearly 4000 likes! So not quite the "minority of bigots" or "it's only about 12 transphobes sockpuppeting" that TRAs like to throw at us.

IdrisElbow · 06/12/2019 13:37

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

OldCrone · 06/12/2019 14:14

a 100K donation last month from a pharmaceutical company that produces puberty blocking drugs.

I didn't see that. I was just talking about the suggestion that a major provider of private healthcare was somehow 'specialising' in transgender treatments. No doubt they provide them, but so does the NHS.