Accused of cherry-picking trans horror stories

[PuertoVallarta]

How do you deal with people who say that pointing out transgressions by individual transwomen is like combing the news for examples of immigrants behaving badly?

I do understand this particular criticism of GC talking points.

I am quite vocal about this issue in my daily life. But sometimes I feel caught between a rock and a hard place:

“That never happens.”

“Well, Karen White...”

“You’re just picking isolated examples to paint a whole segment of the population as villains. You’re as bad as Trump in America.”

I don’t want to sound insane and obsessed as I keep rattling on, “Well, this happened, too! And another transwoman did this! And another did that!”

Heeeeeeelp meeeeeee?

No answers then?

It was going so well too.

To me it’s also about the blurring of boundaries for girls and boys

Children

So there’s a guy in their single sex changing room but he says he’s a woman and not to worry.

How are children able to enforce their boundaries or to even know their boundaries if we don’t allow them to see what they are seeing
It’s a biazzare and worrying time

Yes I agree littl.

No answers then?

There never are any. Sadly. ☹️

I'm nodding along to free's point about it being impossible to know if how people choose to describe their innermost identity is accurate, though.

We can't, can we? So it's a bit pointless to let anyone 'self ID' as anything. There's no reason to believe them.

Probably more sensible to go with the traditional empirical evidence of sex, not gender, then, really. Glad we cleared that one up...

Nobody, not trans groups, certainly some cis guy has the foggiest idea how many trans people are in prison or for what.

There is not a single statistic that exists outside of right-wing opinion piece imaginations, and blogs that suggest trans women have anything remotely like 'male criminality'.

Looking at these two statements, It's not clear how it's possible to draw any conclusions about a population that you refuse to define, or at what point somebody self defining as trans would be less likely to possess any traits or qualities associated with their sex.

This was my favourite bit:

A good sign that someone us spreading propaganda is the endless use of blogs as sources.

Um, my link that one in fifty prisoners identifies as trans wasaccording to the annual report by Peter Clarke, the chief inspector of prisons.

You cannot convince every woman that male people are 'really women', because they really aren't.

So their presence in female facilities is intrusive, their presence in female sleeping areas is the same problem as other men, and their presence in female sports is just as unfair.

This is what it all boils down to.

There never are any.

At least with insightful posts like frees more and more people are seeing FWR for what it actually is, he/she certainly showed us and the rest of the world that mumsnet is a site of 12 people who aren't worth 4 pages of incoherent rants because nobody agrees with FWR.

The thing is, I do agree that it's entirely possible that no one knows how many prisoners regard themselves as trans.

Because:

A) some of the 1/50 who so self describe might be lying. We can only speculate as to why someone would invent such a story about themself, & what advantage they'd hope to gain by so doing.

But if we admit that some of these people are liars, that's quite a blow to self ID as a goal.

And/or:

B) some of the other 49/50 prisoners are secretly trans, but not open about it. They are choosing instead to present as their biological sex.

Again, could be. Who knows?

But then we are saying that 'being trans' is even more over represented in the criminal population than 1/50.

Which is tricky, if we're committed to trans people being just as law abiding as the gen pop.

& we are still saying that self ID is wholly unreliable.

I'm not sure either of these is the conclusion Free was actually going for, but I can't see any others.

Well, free appears to be arguing actually that the source is right wing propaganda and is entirely made up.

Which is why it would be helpful to have any other data and more studies on this issue. And indeed on other issues such as the causes of poor health outcomes for trans people. Currently such research is not being conducted as far as I know. I’ve been advised that bad health outcomes for trans people are due to bigotry against them but I’ve never seen A study that measures that specifically. More seems to be a hand wave to explain the data from other studies.

I'm not sure either of these is the conclusion Free was actually going for,

I'd guess free doesn't really know what they were going for either but the idea to argue against EVERYTHING we say sounded good in their head.

A male prisoner "Identifying" as a woman is no different to them "identifying" as Jewish to get the kosher meal.
If it makes their time inside more pleasant, trust me they will identify as a three toed sloth.
I don't think (I might be wrong) that anyone has said transwomen are more of a threat to women and children than men are?
I thought the issue was that allowing men to self id in effect allows any man to walk into a woman's space (or be locked up with women).
Whenever I have mentioned the men in women's prisons things to anyone, the first thing they say is how it really isn't safe to put transwomen in with men. So the general perception is of tw as very effeminate and vulnerable.
Well some will definitely be at risk in a men's wing, just like some younger, weaker men will be,and protecting them from harm IS really important, just not at the expense of ALL the women.
The only people who get straight away that men really can't be housed with women are actual prison staff, who are dealing with this every day, and are just not listened to by the decision makers in the MoJ.

That men will identify as women to get access to females or escape the male estate isn’t in question as James Barrett comprehensively described in his submission to the government.

Many of those identifying as trans women in prison did so after conviction as they have been refused access to the female estate.

The MoJ made a mistake allowing KW in to a female prison. They went against recommendation. Why?

Probably more sensible to go with the traditional empirical evidence of sex

Going with birth sex in all situations is calamitously unfair to trans women who have established lives as women and have not been convicted for sex crimes.

Prisons should should be doing competent risk assessments, as with any prisoners shouldn’t they?

Not going with birth sex is calamitously unfair to female people, who have not been consulted about including males in their spaces at whatever stage of transition, without ever checking or gatekeeping their sincerity of purpose or agenda.

Kind of the whole issue for female people.

Some of those female people will be excluded from access to any space by the presence of biological males regardless of how those males identify, in order to provide male people with more choice and respect for their feelings.

Please do explain how that's just, right and fair. Please. Because that defeats me entirely.

I’ve read on trans rights forums the following advantages for female people who are forced to use mixed sex spaces

1. closeted trans men (women) will see other trans people and have a Chance to escape their compulsory cis gender oppression.

2. children, and women who have experienced male violence will have the opportunity to get over their unreasonable fear of erect penises, which are completely natural and nothing to be worried about

Yes, the people making these arguments appeared to be serious and were encouraged in the correctness of their thinking by others in the forum.

I think a nice competent risk assessment would have trans women 'of good standing', if we are arguing that such a male category exists - & I'd concede the Jan Morrises of this world, should JM ever have their collar felt...

...could be offered trans units in male prisons.

Other provision for vulnerable males already exists. It's not perfect, & I'd happily support campaigning for it to be better.

But no, not males in women's jails. Not under any circumstances.

If you're in prison, you certainly didn't choose to be there. If we believe in sex segregated spaces to protect women at all, that has to be an inviolable one.

I can decide to eat elsewhere if the restaurant has unisex toilets. I can decide to not shop in shops that have unisex changing, or not swim at leisure centres, or not vote for a political society.

I can't decide that, having been incarcerated, I'd rather not shower with a male or share a cell with a male, unless the penal system agrees that this is unacceptable.

I think they must.

What an excellent thread thank you OP. So many women have posted insightful, analytical points. Literally indisputable.

Yes, male born people should be with other make born people only, but obviously vulnerable males should be housed separately. I don't really see why that would be do hard to do (and is often done already, as a pp has said).

Going with birth sex in all situations is calamitously unfair to trans women who have established lives as women and have not been convicted for sex crimes.

God, it's so tedious and unbelievably misogynistic that women are never, ever considered. Ever.

Fuck off with that shit.

If you don't want to be the men's prisons, sort it out, do something about it. Get off your bloody arses.

You can't inflict it on the women. No thanks.

Anywhere with long term sleeping / showering accomodation should be single sex. This would include universities, shelters for the homeless and especially abuse shelters, and hospitals where single rooms don’t exist.

Third spaces should be made available for those who prefer or do not care about mixed sex services. I would use such mixed sex services.

It’s fine to say young women can choose to go to another university if they don’t want a male roommate but that is asking for her to turn her life upside down by delaying her education for a year... dunno how often this is happening. Like a

Cut off. Like a lot of what we are discussing no one seems to be collecting these vital data. Just kind of... doing things without thinking about possible issues.

I'm in full agreement on all those red lines, btw.

But I think the prison one is in extra bold, permanent marker with a red 3D printer fence.