Accused of cherry-picking trans horror stories

[PuertoVallarta]

How do you deal with people who say that pointing out transgressions by individual transwomen is like combing the news for examples of immigrants behaving badly?

I do understand this particular criticism of GC talking points.

I am quite vocal about this issue in my daily life. But sometimes I feel caught between a rock and a hard place:

“That never happens.”

“Well, Karen White...”

“You’re just picking isolated examples to paint a whole segment of the population as villains. You’re as bad as Trump in America.”

I don’t want to sound insane and obsessed as I keep rattling on, “Well, this happened, too! And another transwoman did this! And another did that!”

Heeeeeeelp meeeeeee?

Is the penny in the air yet...?

Are you kidding the penny is firmly glued to the pavement.

yes these could be nefarious men pretending to be trans women, that is not the fault of trans women.

Well it's not the fault of female people either, is it? It's TW insisting that male people must be allowed into female spaces regardless of how they look, and that they cannot be challenged for ID or proof of transition that's caused this issue for female people.

TW need to take responsibility for this. How are they proposing to do this in a way that protects the female people this is going to negatively affect?

The worlds moved on, this endless cycle of mumsnet transphobia, contrarianism, and clique-building is really sad to see grown ups acting this way.

Why don't you try again and be a bit ruder and more patronising this time? Guaranteed to win hearts and minds that is. No, the world has not moved on, that's a chant like 'TWAW' that's supposed to convince the general public it's too late. The average person in the street has no idea what a TW is, or what any of the jargon means, or what a GRC is, and most of them are horrified. What you have on MN is what happens when ordinary women get educated on what's happening to women's rights.

The trans lobby is responsible for this damage to women, they need to own it. If they won't, and they're not interested in the impact their demands have on female people, then female people are going to get increasingly pissed off and resistant with them. Why on earth wouldn't they?

And grown up? Seriously? Excluding vulnerable women from any services so males have more choice is 'grown up' thinking is it?

Sorry, I've not read the thread.

My feelings (and thus reply to the question in the OP) are these:

Well, these 'cherry picked' examples do exist. And yes, there are of course transwomen who are as much danger to women as any other female woman. And yes, they just want to peacefully get on with their lives. And of course it's wrong to pick out one example and use that to judge all members of the group. But that's not the issue. The issue - and my question to those who go make the cherry picking comments - is this:

How do we tell the difference between the Karen Whites/wax my balls/creepy weirdy men, and a bog standard, harmless, normal transwoman?

And is it OK to use women as bait to lure the dangerous men out?

And is no one harmed if they are letched over, or stared at in a changing room, as long as they aren't touched?

Is that how we tell the difference, put them to the test?

Are you OK with that?

Do you get to decide and judge those who feel differently about themselves, and about vulnerable adults, and children?

Are you kidding the penny is firmly glued to the pavement.

Yeah, I thought I'd be polite.

And I do get that times are shit for normal transwomen. It's awful.

But I think a normal man, for example, would understand that late at night, if he's walking down the street behind a lone woman, the decent think to do would be to cross to the other side of the road, and dawdle, so she doesn't feel followed.

It's about decency and respecting others' feelings. So it's shit for transwomen, but not because of women who want and need their own spaces, but because of tragic loser pervert dangerous men.

Free

It is increasingly difficult for anyone to study criminality and recidivism in the trans populations because trans activists through regulatory capture have made it nearly impossible to figure out who is trans.

One of the Things feminists in Scotland are campaigning for is to accurately report both natal sex AND gender identity in the census so that among other things we can at least potentially track these things. And in addition be able to do things like provide specialist accommodations and services for trans people (like setting up sufficient gender clinics etc).

Meanwhile trans activist groups are advising their constituents to lie about their natal sex on census forms. Which will ultimately lead to fewer or inappropriate services for trans and non trans people. We might ask who is really being transphobic and hateful toward trans people here?

Also the author of the study you’re talking about did “clear up” that she did not mean for people to say trans women are all criminals and that there could be other reasons why males who identify as women have criminality rates which are not significantly different from natal males / are significantly different from natal females. Which, yeah, duh. But she did not “debunk“ her own stats. The fact remains that all of the very limited (thanks to trans activists) research we have points to no effect on overall criminality based on gender identity among natal male people.

That is not to say that all males are criminals obviously, regardless of how they may identify. That’s how statistics work. Trans activists are asserting without evidence that trans women are no different from natal women in patterns of violent criminality then prove it with data. Same with sports.

One could look at the evidence and say, well, then sex segregation should be abolished because it’s discriminatory. I think this is a morally defensible position. I personally have not experienced male violence and I don’t mind being exposed / naked in front of males or females. However based on feedback from women here I respectfully disagree because clearly many women still require single sex accomodation. I encourage you to listen to women as I’ve done. I never saw the problem being relatively sheltered. But, now I do.

In any case very few trans activists are taking this position. Instead they are arguing that all males who identify as women should be granted access to women’s sex segregated spaces and services, fully on their own say so and any woman who protests to male bodies in her spaces is a bigot who should mind her own business. That is, trans activists believe that trans women deserve rights above and beyond those of any other male person. And not after working hard to assimilate and “pass” so they wouldn’t make a fuss. No. They want special additional rights over and beyond what other males are entitled to immediately when the idea of being a woman crosses the lips (or thumbs) of the male person. Without question. Without debate. And when a case occurs which shows that this can lead to problems for women that would not otherwise occur it’s called cherry picking. No. Women are allowed to have and to enforce out own boundaries.

I assume it is against mumsnet rules to assert all trans women are abusive, or violent offenders? Thats shows clearly that there is an anti-trans bias at work.

It is please report where you see that, because I've missed it.

You said yourself that nefarious men would take advantage. I pointed out this is because of TW's demands without taking the faintest consideration of the impact on women.

You're pissed off that women mind?

You think the answer is women do..... what exactly?

FWRLurker

Excellent post. Calm, comprehensive and clear.

Yes I understand you really really want innocent trans peopleto pay for what men may or may not do.

How is treating transwomen the same as any other man making them pay?

Yet you claim so some cis man in charge of prisons who makes an entirely ridicolous and unfounded claim as though he has the remotest idea of peoples innermost identity,

No one has the remotest idea of anyone's innermost identity, do they? You're quite right.

You could ask them if they think women deserve this safeguarding measure, after all the intention is to take sex segregated spaces away from 31million women-all re-developments in the future will be unisex.
Other measures against dysfunctional men include:
Speed bumps to stop joyriding.
Airport security tightened to protect against terrorism.
Security in every other area gets tighter over time not more lax! Why is there a huge cultural experiment being run on women when just a very small tiny % increase in crime will result in a lot of misery for so many women.

Are you claiming men are disadvantaged because of safeguarding put in place by factual statistics?

freethegenders

Please give me one, single solitary benefit to women provided by mixed sex facilities, that were previously women only.

With all due respect, free, you're the one who is ranting here.

Nobody on FWR wants transwomen to suffer (I'm surprised you left out the space between trans and women) but even you acknowledge that there are differences between "trans people and women" (your words), and that these groups have different needs and therefore need different provisions. Which is what many posters would be happy with - third spaces. But the problem is the aggressive demand for access to women's spaces for people who are born male and always remain male because you cannot change your sex.

I'm really sorry but I will never change my mind on this point. You cannot change your biological sex. Can you tell me what is kind about peddling the lie that it is possible?

A good sign that someone us spreading propaganda is the endless use of blogs as sources.

I should have pointed out that the medium article I linked to contained statistics obtained via a FOI request made to the MoJ by the BBC. The figures are from the MoJ. I linked to this because it gives you the figures in an accessible format.

You are free to do your own analysis of the statistics if you disagree with the analysis done by the author of that article. But the statistics are still those supplied by the government.

If you think the government has manipulated the statistics before supplying them as a response to a FOI request, that is another issue altogether.

You can simply read up this thread and see the defensive reactions of people invested in a one-way nefarious narrative.

That seems like a particularly accurate description of what you are doing freethegenders.

These threads are always brilliant.

Sunlight.

The only trans people that are counted in prisons in the UK, are those that satisfy two requirements, to be long-term, and to have requested a case review outing themselves.

So the ones with a GRC giving them a legal sex of female, who are automatically sent to women's prisons, are not counted? Worrying. Especially if self-ID becomes law.

But some people really really want you to believe Propaganda outlets like fairplay for women, whose whole raison detre is anti trans, claims to have evidence and a convoluted juggling of figures to show trans women are male, despite the M.O.J. making exceedingly clear with the F.O.I. none of those figures are reliable.

Have you published your analysis of the MoJ figures? I'd like to see it.

Seconded, Crone.

I wonder whether projection is a psychoanalytical cliché or just a useful concept.

On the plus side, we've seen extensive application of the word 'nefarious'. Someone's English teacher will be proud

all logic and data points that currently exist

I am very interested to read more studies that include any data at all on rates of criminality among trans gender people of both sexes. Can you provide links? As far as I’m aware the data we have is very limited and So far, no study I know of has shown a significant difference in criminality between trans women and other groups of natal male people. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong as it would be something of a relief.

I will say however that even if trans women were shown to have female-typical rates of violent and sexual crimes (again please send links!), there still is the issue of women in vulnerable situations being unable to tell if the person in front of her is a trans woman minding her own business or a natal male person taking advantage of the situation (who presumably would be a male-typical risk for sexual or violent assault). What specifically should a woman made uncomfortable by a male in her intimate spaces do to clarify the situation? Are her feelings of unease bigoted? If she should accept both male people in her spaces then why have single sex spaces at all??

Are her feelings of unease bigoted? If she should accept both male people in her spaces then why have single sex spaces at all??

Not to mention: why are the male people's feelings and right to be in her space against her will more important than considering the impact on the female?

Datun's question above - what single benefit to the female is there in this?