Ask Angela posters

[placemats]

Seen in the female toilets at a beautiful pub in Wales on Tuesday. I think this campaign is fantastic. Hats off to National Pubwatch.

www.nationalpubwatch.org.uk/news/national-pubwatch-supports-ask-angela-campaign/

A friend of mine works in a pub where they use this scheme. She told me she's had several women use it over the years. In this pub, it prompts the bar staff to order a cab and get the woman into it without the guy knowing about it. They even pay for the taxi if the woman for some reason has no money. From her perspective it's great, as anyone coming up asking for angela is simply told "oh, I get her for you". She'll then discretely mention to the woman that a taxi will arrive in X minutes and get her out. In her experience, it seems to be women on first dates who are freaked out by the man for some reason. It's not always easy to say "you weirdo, I'm outta here!".

I am saddened that people would rubbish this scheme to help women.

I wouldn't want to 'rubbish' the scheme but the nature of bar work is staff turnover is very frequent and training often done quickly and poorly. Staff will have barely been showed how to work the till. The idea is good but of the long list of things staff are given on their first day (fire safety, how to work the till, how to clock in for your shift, how to check age ID, how to check the £20 notes are real, how to process card sales, how to actually pour a drink, what to do if a drunken fight breaks out, where cleaning equipment is for drunken puking, what cleaning equipment can you actually use under the health and safety laws...) it is probably quite far down the list. However pretty much anyone on their first shift will understand "I need to speak to the manager". Of course people in need should be given help but all these different 'schemes' mean requests for help will often get lost.

It would take about a minute or two to explain what the sign in the ladies loo was all about to a new member of staff.

It wouldn't just take a minute though. You would need to be taught the procedure to go through. Do you just leave your till and the bar unattended? Do you take the person to the staff area or leave them at the bar? Who is responsible for phoning the taxi company? Where is the phone (managers office?). What taxi company would you use? Who pays for it? Do you give money from the till?
This is the type of thing management should know but bar staff not necessarily.

I don't think pointing out the flaws in a scheme is tantamount to 'rubbishing it'.

The problem is that, often, people don't really think about a scheme like this. It looks attractive at first glance, but it hasn't been thought through.

In the example above, a poster says It's not always easy to say "you weirdo, I'm outta here!" - we should be trying to change this - encourage women to feel that's absolutely fine to say you want to leave a situation in which you don't feel comfortable, when you are in a safe, public environment.

Inventing secret codes, that are neither truly secret nor universally understood, but fall in a middle ground which renders their usefulness minimal, is not the answer.

I'm disappointed that some people, rather than engaging in a reasoned discussion about schemes that might work, when others raise detailed and considered objections, are simply shutting down discussion by saying that anyone who doesn't think this scheme is marvellous isn't interested in 'helping women'.

I've worked in bars - it does work.

If you do have a clueless newbie who hasn't been told what the 'Angela' thing is, their response will generally be 'it's my first day, I don't know who that is so I'll ask the manager'. Job done.

Or if the woman gets a nonplussed look & 'no, no Angela here...' then she can say 'look actually I need your help to get away from the bloke over there'. It's wasted a few seconds, that's all.

It's like the spoons in your pants if you're being trafficked through an airport thing. It's not going to reach everyone who needs help. But it will help some.

It prompts the bar staff to order a cab and get the woman into it without the guy knowing about it. They even pay for the taxi if the woman for some reason has no money

What women are going on dates with no money?

From her perspective it's great, as anyone coming up asking for angela is simply told "oh, I get her for you". She'll then discretely mention to the woman that a taxi will arrive in X minutes and get her out.

Why can't the woman either app or ring the taxi in the toilets?

In her experience, it seems to be women on first dates who are freaked out by the man for some reason. It's not always easy to say "you weirdo, I'm outta here!"

This is what pisses me off most. Women who don't want to be on dates don't need an 'Ask Angela' scheme, they need to realise that they can say 'fuck this, I'm off.'

That makes me sound like I'm blaming women. I'm not. I just don't think women should have to tip toe around men when they've just met them. Or even decades after that.

This is what pisses me off most. Women who don't want to be on dates don't need an 'Ask Angela' scheme, they need to realise that they can say 'fuck this, I'm off.'

Yes, this. At last, someone else who sees it.

And, no, it's not blaming women - it's blaming the social norms that have taught women to be polite and compliant. It's saying that we need to empower women to challenge this, instead of hiding behind the socially acceptable subterfuge of 'Angela'.

I remember a story from someone who worked in the NHS. There were small dot stickers in the toilet. The signal was to place a sticker on your medical notes. Only a small child was there with his mum.... caused no end of confusion!
They had this when I was pregnant, there were stickers behind the toilet cubicle doors, and you could put one on your urine sample, (which were left in the toilets). Obviously, no men were allowed in there, I remember thinking at the time how clever/brilliant.

I agree with ScreamingValenta, unfortunately I think this idea means well but hasn't been very well thought through. How is the bar staff calling you a cab and "getting you in to it" different to just calling for/using an app to get one yourself, then going and getting in to it. You are going to have to walk out the door either way.

Its making the "calling the cab" part secret, but if you can go the toilet and the bar alone, just secretly call yourself in that time. You can use an app to get a cab right from your table, no words need be spoken out loud at all. This idea would have been great before mobiles were ubiquitous.

I suppose if a women finds herself on a creepy date with no money/card and no phone this could help. But that's an extremely rare situation. I haven't seen a person in a pub who wasn't holding their phone for years.

I'm happy to be corrected on this if someone has actually done this (from the patron side, not bar staff) and it did help them.

It's even more pointless to imagine this could help in a long term dv situation. What help is a cab going to do? Where is it going to take you?

This is what pisses me off most. Women who don't want to be on dates don't need an 'Ask Angela' scheme, they need to realise that they can say 'fuck this, I'm off.'

Yeah, it's like those idiot women who go back to the man that's beating her up. She just needs to realise (with some magical fairy dust thinking) f this, I'm off. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm being sarcastic and your remark is abhorrent.

Yeah, it's like those idiot women who go back to the man that's beating her up. She just needs to realise (with some magical fairy dust thinking) f this, I'm off. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm being sarcastic and your remark is abhorrent.

With respect, if you are talking about an ongoing DV situation rather than an escape from a single date, I think 'Ask Angela' is what represents the 'fairy dust' mentality.

Do you really think that women who are trapped in an abusive relationship can escape them by simply 'asking for Angela'? Don't you think that, if it was as easy as merely telling someone they needed help, they wouldn't have done that anyway? It is not, technically difficult to ask for help overtly. It is not, technically difficult to ask for help covertly without the aid of a 'password' (pass a note to someone, to state just one way).

Suggesting that 'asking for Angela' is a way out of long term abusive relationships insults the intelligence of those who are in them.

Sorry to repost, but I feel very angry about this. "Oh, these poor dumb women in abusive relationships. It's probably never occurred to them that they could secretly ask for help. Why don't we clever people introduce a brilliant 'ask for Angela' scheme, so they can escape straight away, and hail us as geniuses for our brilliant idea?"

• Two distinct uses for 'Ask Angela' have been put forward.

1. As a way to escape a first date in which a woman feels threatened.
2. As an escape route from a long term abusive relationship.

1. The reason a woman might not be able to leave a first date is because society expects her to be polite, gracious and compliant. In a safe public arena where 'Ask Angela' would be applicable (i.e. not where the woman is on her own with the date and there is no one else around to ask) the woman should feel able to leave, without an excuse, or at least to ask openly for a taxi or assistance to leave. 'Asking for Angela' merely perpetuates the idea that a woman can't walk out of a date without a socially acceptable excuse.

1. Women do not stay in long-term abusive relationships because they are too dim to think of a way to ask someone for a taxi without alerting their partner. They stay because their partner knows where they live, they know where their family lives, they've threatened to gain custody of the children, they've threatened to harm the children. Or, they've been gaslighted into thinking the abuse is normal. Or, they're severely depressed and think they deserve the abuse. Or, they've been abused into thinking they are too worthless to get another partner, and are incapable of coping on their own. Or (x another 100 deep-seated reasons).

'Ask for Angela' is a glittery sticking plaster people are trying to put on a huge, gaping, septic wound. Well-meant, but ineffectual and if anything, likely to distract attention from solving the real problem,

Yeah, it's like those idiot women who go back to the man that's beating her up. She just needs to realise (with some magical fairy dust thinking) f this, I'm off. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm being sarcastic and your remark is abhorrent.

This isn't what I said, and I suspect you're fully aware of that. Ongoing domestic violence doesn't start with a woman being hit on a first date. It's insidious and involves mental control as well as physical abuse. It is in no way, shape, or form right to compare leaving a domestic abuse situation to a woman leaving a first date with a stranger.

In the latter case, so what if she rings a taxi in front of him and leaves? She doesn't need to protect his feelings by 'asking for Angela'. She hasn't been subjected to the ongoing coercive control present in domestic abuse situations.

Women are allowed to be rude to men. Women are allowed to leave dates with men without giving a reason. They are allowed to ring taxis in front of men and get into them. They don't need to creep around getting out of first dates in public areas by stealth.

You know what, there are lots of situations where this would help women, or give them a chance to escape. It won't help every woman, but it could help some. That's enough.

I'm thinking back to my University days where young women would be out at a bar on a date or even out with people you know in a group and a guy wouldn't leave you alone, no matter how many - polite at first, then increasingly less-so - hints you drop. And when you started suggesting that you might head home, he immediately insisted that he'd walk you home or get a taxi with you, not to be chivalrous, but to get you on your own away from people so he could keep working on you to get his way.

So this scheme could help some of those women.

And yes, this scheme does rely on having single-sex toilets.

Women are allowed to be rude to men. That doesn't help when meeting a stranger on a date though. He could have lied about his age, be different from his photo. He's in a corner of a pub, waiting for you.

It's tricky. I've had it happen to me when I was 49 ffs!

If I'm rude to someone I don't know, how do I know he wont follow me out of the bar? I've met him. He knows me. Obviously I've told friends and family what I'm doing. However, it's the moment that counts. If I know there's support there then that's a good thing. It's an added extra.

I'd like to return home safe and sound.

And no, men shouldn't intimate so much it makes those they date feel unsafe.

NAMALT caveat of course.

It's a great poster, discreet and informative. I'm glad it's out there.

Thanks for posting the link placemats I had been looking for their details, gave up & forgot about it! Back on track now.

I've not seen these posters before, what a great idea.

So's this
it said if you needed to speak to the nurse without your partner present, put one of these stickers on your sample pot and they’d get your partner out of the room so you could talk in confidence

Not had to use either of these scenarios, (touch wood etc) but it's great that they're out there for women needing help.

You're welcome VortexofBloggery

Women are allowed to be rude to men. Women are allowed to leave dates with men without giving a reason
Of course they are, you don't need to give a reason to anyone - just call a taxi and go.
They don't need to creep around getting out of first dates in public areas by stealth
Of course they don't need to, but isn't it nice to have the option?
Why does it have to be an either or?
Great if you feel comfortable being able to say "bye" and just go of by yourself.
If you're feeling uneasy, or something's just not right, would you want to just take off from say the pub by yourself?
I probably wouldn't, I think it's a great idea to have the option of making the bar staff be made aware of any creepy behaviour.
If a woman felt she might be followed out for example, isn't it good to have a discreet way of getting help?

Another reason why I think that, on balance, the A4A posters do help is that they raise awareness among nice but oblivious men.

I've trained young, male bar staff & they've generally been quite surprised that this is a thing. Because their experience is basically 'ok, gone on a blind date, not feeling it to be honest, I don't fancy her & she's a bit dull'.

So they've politely seen the date through & then declined second meetings. Which is what polite people do, right? They didn't feel threatened, or scared, or worried that someone might react badly to rejection. Just 'ah well, she was nice enough but I wasn't interested' - ghost & swipe right on the next possible.

It was eye opening for them to see that actually, dating doesn't always quite look like that for women.

Sometimes being in a bar with a bad date can be a scary experience. This was a new perspective for them - it wasn't their experience.