R4 Today

[donquixotedelamancha]

Justin is questioning a Lib Dem spokeswoman now. She's an idiot.

Must conclude that Diane was going home for a wank.

And it's a long way to Cornwall on a train.

If any journalists are reading this and considering Hard Questions to pose to Christine Jardine - here's one:

Paris Greene is an inmate in Saughton Jail, the women's wing, because Paris is a TW. Paris was living as a TW prior to committing a particularly nasty torture and murder with some of Paris' very best friends, who are in the male wing. Paris was housed in Cornton Vale, the women's prison in Scotland until it was closed. Paris had to be moved from CV several times on account of sexual encounters with inmates - none of whom reported assaults, but, then, who would, given that Paris is clearly a dangerous person? Paris is in the women's wing and waiting for surgery, I'm assuming that is FFS or breast implants rather than bottom surgery.

Tiffany Scott is in the male wing of Saughton. Tiffany also says they are a TW. Tiffany is reported as being "Scotland's most dangerous inmate" but, Tiffany has not been convicted of torture/murder/have query sexual assault history. Tiffany is, by any account, quite a challenge to keep safe and to keep others safe from Tiffany - but, is languishing in the male wing, despite IDing as a woman.

How is this fair to Tiffany?

obviously, the real question is "how is this fair to the female inmates who are our most vulnerable females in society and who are at risk of state sanctioned rape by being locked up with anyone with a penis and a habit of violence?"- but, seems to me that the Lib Dems don't much think that women matter

I have emailed CJ about this situation. No response.

Diane James did indeed complain to Great Western that the wi-fi didn't let Diane onto a sex toy site on a public train. Great Western stood their ground surprisingly firmly iirc.

I think it was on the way to the meeting - nice to know what Diane was mulling over just before giving evidence to Parliament on women affected by domestic violence.

I was shocked to hear that in Canada - who have gone full-on gender self ID - the prison wardens just hand out the morning after pill routinely to women in prison. This is where we're heading - it's a complete failure of safeguarding for women prisoners to lock them up with a fully functioning male, just because of that's male's self declared gender identity.

nothing shocks me about Canada, it's gone completely bonkers

That is rather unsavoury. The train business.

I suppose journalists are going to be wary of stigmatising a group for the behaviour of a few. Like they would when talking about priests (some of whom have been abusers), or gay people (some of whom have done things).

"What are you going to do with all the women who will have to leave the refuge/ not have access to refuge because of a biological male in them?"

obviously the answer is report them for transphobia

TRA tropes:

janeclarejones.com/2019/11/25/the-tra-trope-almanac/

It's striking that Christine Jardine is confident that she knows how many trans people commit suicide, but unwilling to define what 'trans' means.

It's nothing to do with stigmatising "a group" - this is an issue of female single sex spaces allowing functioning males in, because of their gender identity.

Field

I suppose journalists are going to be wary of stigmatising a group for the behaviour of a few. Like they would when talking about priests (some of whom have been abusers), or gay people (some of whom have done things)

Interesting analogy.

Priests aren't trying to insert themselves into the category of nuns (as far as I know) and then complain that they're stigmatised due to the behaviour of a few priests-who-want-to-be-identified-as-nuns.

Gay people (as far as I know) aren't trying to insert themselves into the category of straight people and then complain that they're stigmatised due to the behaviour of a few gay-people-who-want-to-be-seen-as straight-but are stigmatised by the behaviour of a few..

The 'group' you're referring to are males, no matter how they identify,.

Who are attempting to insert themselves into the category of women, a completely different category to themselves, and then complain that they're stigmatised because 'they'e a group'. Unless we're going to cut society across lines of 'things you like to wear/ways you like to present' that group still is males = males. The same flipping group!

I suppose journalists are going to be wary of stigmatising a group for the behaviour of a few
So what you're saying, in reality, is that we should be wary of stigmatising males for the behaviour of a few.

Well, yes. That's why we have female-only spaces!

You missed one Claire: 'ok yes, so some do it but it's only a few'.

For all we know, the biological males in the refuges the MNetter couldn't access were absolutely lovely biological males. It was the fact of their biology that made being in the refuge untenable and living in a tent under 24 risk (including freezing to death) a better option.

If you argue for this, you're arguing for some women being left to sink or swim on their own. Blocking them from the very services designed for women in these exact situations. And because of the situations these women are escaping and their limited options, women will die because of this sooner or later.

Like they would when talking about priests (some of whom have been abusers), or gay people (some of whom have done things).

Women are not worried about trans people (many of whom were not born male). They are worried about men.

This makes me so so angry. Who do the Lib Dem nitwits think set up women's refuges in the first place? The government? Men? No! They were set up on a shoestring, grassroots level FOR WOMEN BY WOMEN. If men want refuges they can set up their own.
As for the prison nightmare: I know people working in the prison service. From their perspective the civil servants making these decisions just seem to have some kind of woolly liberal, idea of what prison is about. They have never actually known anyone who has been inside, and they don't talk to prison staff. Prison staff themselves know full well that, given the chance, male inmates will say ANYTHING for a softer stretch. It's fucking obvious.
There are vulnerable men in prisons, of course there are, and male prisons need to be able to use their proffessional judgement and make provision for them within the male estate.
Women being unsafe is not collateral damage in the quest to make a tiny percentage of "genuine" transwomen feel better.
Grrr.

Men who are victims of domestic abuse aren't able to access women's abuse refuges, are they? I feel very sorry for them, but it clearly wouldn't be appropriate for them to go to the same place that female victims go. I can't see how this is different to be honest.

“ Men who are victims of domestic abuse aren't able to access women's abuse refuges, are they?”

Most domestic violence orgs serve both male and female victims of abuse, but I think you are right that the refuges themselves are almost always sex segregated.

So the question (like for prison) is what to do with the males that ID as women if they need refuge. Should sex or “gender” Determine it? As usual I would ask “why” in each case and the answer is much more compelling for separation by sex. Male bodied people after all are not going to be triggered by the sight of a male body or sound of a male voice. And that’s not mentioning safeguarding against male people with bad intentions trying to access vulnerable women.

The why for gender segregation is either a thought terminating cliche (TWAW, bigot!) or an argument for validation. There is no “safety” argument that does not apply equally to the gay men seeking refuge from abusive partners in the men’s refuge. If anything the trans woman should be safer from sexual violence than the other men would.

So the question (like for prison) is what to do with the males that ID as women if they need refuge
I don't think that is the question. If we have agreed that men don't belong in women's refuges (though they should of course be supported) then the question about trans women has been answered.