R4 Today

[donquixotedelamancha]

Justin is questioning a Lib Dem spokeswoman now. She's an idiot.

Well he didn't challenge her much at all. We seem to have the Belcher template there - didn't seem to be much of an explanation of why that means TW are acceptable in refuges either. The usual logic fail.

Helen Belcher is hoping to be elected as an MP. Helen's wife Joanna spoke at the lib dem conference about their relationship. I think she mentioned that Helen had threatened suicide at some point. In a short video on Helen's website Joanna mentions how she had to 'walk on eggshells' before Helen's transition because Helen had 'a very short fuse'.

This blissful relationship seems to be the only account of transitioning that the lib dems are willing to listen to.

Yes, people have a very wide definition of "friend" in these circumstances. I'd be interested to see that if they were pressed, this "friend" would be someone they met through politics who was specifically there to push the policy through - and in all cases was the same person.

I cannot believe we have reached the point where a Lib Dem MP is seriously arguing the case that males should be allowed in women’s refuges because otherwise the males will kill themselves.

There is so much clearly wrong with that argument that I don’t even know where to begin.

how will you protect women from men who pretend to be trans in order to access those spaces?

It is not just about men who "pretend to be trans", but about how the label of 'trans' has expanded to include all manner of people and practices: fetishists, transvestites, non-binary and so on......not just the small handful of genuinely dysphoric men with a GRC.

Men getting sexual thrills from incursion into women's spaces, being fitted for a bra by unsuspecting staff.......and so on.

I cannot believe we have reached the point where a Lib Dem MP is seriously arguing the case that males should be allowed in women’s refuges because otherwise the males will kill themselves

And referring to women as 'Cis' to boot.....without our permission: regardless of our identity, our feelings, or our sense of well being

Exactly @justhadathought so many ppl still think trans = transsexual with full surgery not the pips & Alex’s of this world

Let alone the AGP, fetishists Abd blokes who just want in to our spaces for the power trip

Have the Libdems never heard of AGP?

Have they never heard Tara Hewitts training talk to the NHS confirming that some males do this as a sexual fetish?

Would someone from the Libdems care to explain to women why they should allow those male bodied sexual fetishists to get off by being included n women's spaces? Because as per Tara Hewitt, and Stonewall, they are included under the trans umbrella now.

Tara's training course.

From 4:25 Tara describes trans being an "umbrella" term, including a range of different identities.

I'm supportive of trans people not being stigmatised, and being able to receive medical care with dignity - but I'm at a complete loss as to why this means vulnerable women have to share intimate spaces with male bodied people because of how they feel internally, or because of how they dress.

Tara, who is a transwoman, distinguishes between transexuals, drag queens, cross dressers who may be cross-dressing part or full time, and may be doing it as a fetish.

When the LibDems (and others) talk about this, I think they must only be considering transexuals - because I can't see why anyone would think male sexual fetishists should be allowed into women's spaces.

You are being very generous in your last paragraph. I think they're aware of the breadth of the trans umbrella and consider that letting the fetishists into women's spaces is a price worth paying. To what end I'm unsure.

That's just it, nauticant - I just can't account for women actively campaigning to allow sexual fetishists into women's spaces. WHY??

They see vulnerable women who are suffering because of gender self ID - like Karen White's victims - as collateral damage - worthwhile because they're upholding the TWAW mantra, and getting all their brownie points from the woke?

Does anyone know what to search for to find this on the radio 4 catch up player?

You should be able to do it by time. Today starts at 6am so about 55 minutes in?

How do women tell the difference between a genuine man who says he's a woman and a man who says he's a woman to get access to women?

No need to distinguish. The former may not intend harm to women. However just because he says he's a woman doesn't make it true. Neither should be in women's spaces: in my opinion.

Thank you Clymene

"I cannot believe we have reached the point where a Lib Dem MP is seriously arguing the case that males should be allowed in women’s refuges because otherwise the males will kill themselves"

and that their wives will be to blame

Question never asked:

What are you going to do with all the women who will have to leave the refuge/ not have access to refuge because of a biological male in them? Many of whom will have children with them. Many of whom will have protected characteristics. Many of whom will have experienced extreme violence, actual threat to life and suicidal feelings.

There's a fuck ton more of them than there are TW.

Why ffs not make SOME refuges mixed sex, and leave others single sex? And don't dare to say 'they won't be near home', every day women travel hundreds of miles to the one vacant bed in the country with small kids in tow.

Why not fund specialist LGBT+ refuges to set up for the apparently many many desperate LGBT+ people in need of them? (What are the numbers? Why does no one wittering about this ever have them to hand?) I'm sure the LGBT+ refuges will be inclusive too and welcome non LGBT+ people.

It's not difficult to find basic solutions that meet everyone's needs here, unless your primary aim is not about meeting needs but enforcing a really grim anti-woman agenda.

I don’t think it’s a common scenario, the TW most likely to be at risk of DV are the ones living with men, and there aren’t that many. The average woman in a refuge isn’t likely to come across a TW.

Could they not come across a trans woman who had chosen to work at the refuge under self id?

There are MNetters who have been unable to enter a refuge because of there not being a female only available that did not also shelter a biological male. One of those MNetters posts regularly on FWR and was living rough on the street the last time I heard from her. This is not a theoretical hardly ever happens issue, it really isn't. The impact on women in desperate need can be dire.

Fieldofgreycorn well that's only true if you think that men will never lie.

Diane James is a transwoman who works for Cornwall Refuge Trust, and recently (famously) gave evidence to the Women and Equalities Committee about single sex spaces. (clue: Diane doesn't see any problem at all with allowing born males into female spaces. Karen Ingala Smith said otherwise.)

parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/0d07ff13-636e-4b51-a946-2877e583dc4c

Diane James also got into trouble on the way home from that meeting for tweeting the products she wanted to buy from (the excellent) Sh! women store in London.

It's an adult shop.

Must conclude that Diane was going home for a wank.

The manager of Forth Valley rape crisis centre is a transwoman, I believe, and is not sympathetic to the idea that a male presence might be alienating to some women in need.