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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour promises to keep single-sex exemptions

558 replies

RoyalCorgi · 21/11/2019 11:46

From the manifesto:

labour.org.uk/manifesto/tackle-poverty-and-inequality/

"Ensure that the single-sex-based exemptions contained in the Equality Act 2010 are understood and fully enforced in service provision."

This is quite something.

OP posts:
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CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 21/11/2019 21:12

I don't think they've changed their position.

Me either.

happydappy2 · 21/11/2019 21:18

Well let’s await clarification from the powers that be, within the homophobic, misogynistic Labour Party. They have shown us who they are...

GCAcademic · 21/11/2019 21:20

I agree that this is just a sop. Dawn Doxxer Butler and Jeremy Pronouns Corbyn are still at the helm of any future policy-making on this issue. Their history of listening to women’s concerns speaks for itself.

Cismyfatarse1 · 21/11/2019 21:35

What does Lily say?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/11/2019 21:37

LGBT+ Labour update and clarification:

twitter.com/LGBTLabour/status/1197607792334589957?s=19

OldCrone · 21/11/2019 21:56

While I was looking for the quote and the link to the EA2010 about how single sex services might be affected by someone with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment I came across this thread. The post by Thistledew on Mon 17-Sep-18 at 00:08 sets out the problems of how the two protected characteristics might come into conflict in this sort of situation (I hope my link will go straight to the right post).

I also found this government report about Transgender Equality which refers to the example of the women-only group counselling session in the EA2010. The example as it is stated in the EA2010 doesn't specify whether the transsexual person holds a GRC or not.

This is what Claire McCann, a barrister, said:

124. Ms McCann advised us that “this example is drafted too categorically”. While it demonstrates a “legitimate aim”, it gives “insufficient information […] to show that the exclusion of trans people is appropriate and reasonably necessary (i.e. proportionate) to meet that aim”. She further suggested that in the instance cited it may only be lawful to exclude trans people if they do not hold a GRC:

"I would doubt that a service-provider of single-sex or separate services could turn away a trans service-user who holds a GRC because this is unlikely to be proportionate."

It seems that it may be impossible to exclude a GRC holder from single-sex services and spaces which are designed for people of the sex which the GRC holder now has in law.

This is why self-ID is a problem, and why single-sex provision in the EA2010 is incompatible with a GRA which allows self-ID. (It is also incompatible with the GRA as it currently stands, but at least there is some gatekeeping, and a tiny number of GRC holders).

teawamutu · 21/11/2019 22:23

Anyone got a screenshot of Lil's reaction? I'm blocked, obvs.

Macareaux · 21/11/2019 22:41

The LGBT+ Labour update says they will change the EA protected characteristic of gender assignment (sic) to gender identity.

This is not good news. Canada has both sex and gender identity and it's a complete shitshow over there.

And frankly if LGBT Labour are happy, women can't be.

iguanadonna · 21/11/2019 22:44

The funny thing about that Labour LGBT+ update is that it hasn't occurred to them that anyone under the umbrella except 'lesbians and bi women' might need IVF. As though humans were mammals with two reproductive sexes, one of which gestates young. So old-fashioned!

iguanadonna · 21/11/2019 22:45

Macareux, I don't think they are happy. That tweet looks like damage control to me.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 21/11/2019 22:53

I am swaying with the "it's an acknowledgement that there is an issue so that's progress" view.

I'd love to see a good, close-in journalist (eg Janice Turner) grill Dawn Butler or Angela Raynor on this because they'd trip themselves up in 10 seconds flat.

Clymene · 21/11/2019 22:58

I call bullshit. They have already demonstrated that TWAW in their AWS so single sex spaces is just a sop. They think we're stupid.

We're not.

LangCleg · 21/11/2019 23:08

LGBT+ Labour update and clarification

I think they've used an old quote of Butler's and implied it was issued after the manifesto launch. Looks like panic to me. Wasn't the "outdated language" bit in the 2017 manifesto?

OldCrone · 21/11/2019 23:13

They have already demonstrated that TWAW in their AWS so single sex spaces is just a sop.

They believe TWAW so single-sex spaces for women will include TW.

iguanadonna · 21/11/2019 23:20

Agree with Lang; aren't the LGBT+ crew just re-quoting what Dawn B said in Penis News the other day? And it looks like that was over-ridden for the final version. Which is a significant indication of the up-to-the-line discussions which must have been going on. Suggests some strong voices kept arguing, even if only arguing that women have noticed what's going on and don't like it.

xxyzz · 21/11/2019 23:39

Gosh, some people are gullible.

This is Labour, the party of Brexit fudge here.

It's just before an election and they want back some of the votes of women as well as the votes of the woke.

Think they actually suddenly magically care about women? Labour? The party of Dawn Butler and Lily Madigan??

Ha ha. Pull the other one. It's got knobs on.

GetbusywiththeFizzee · 21/11/2019 23:52

I’ve got the Winds of Change in my head now thanks to this thread 😂

Suggests some strong voices kept arguing, even if only arguing that women have noticed what's going on and don't like
Suggests they’re so desperate for votes they’ll trot out any line to get them.

Macareaux · 22/11/2019 00:06

I'm still not buying any of it. That said, overall I'd rather have Corbyn in Downing St than Johnson (in the same way that I'd rather have pneumonia than Ebola)

But I'm quite convinced that the Tories will romp home with a thumping majority so Labour's self ID plans are largely irrelevant.

Shows what times we are living in when you have to be grateful for Liz Truss.

StewedPrune · 22/11/2019 00:07

From Ellie Mae O'Hagan on Twitter

'I'm delighted Labour has confirmed that "single-sex spaces" mentioned in its manifesto are trans inclusive, and that the party is committed to trans rights. See statement below from a Labour spokesperson: (sorry don't know how to link)

'To be clear, I spoke to someone directly at Labour comms to obtain this statement. I have had absolute confirmation that this is the party's official position'

DuMondeB · 22/11/2019 00:11

Doesn’t look like Ellie Mae is putting out accurate information, just a regurgitated 2017 manifesto:

twitter.com/MissEllieMae/status/1197632658806845444?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

XXMansplainShieldActive · 22/11/2019 00:17

I am no elephant but my memory serves up the following on this topic and it is going to take a bit more than "hang fire terfs and vote for us please (til the legal fiction sorts out these uppity terfs)".

www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/transgender-woman-heather-peto-chosen-1323503
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lily-madigan-labour-party-transgender-officer-mp-young-abuse-threats-a8225771.html
www.rt.com/uk/410541-rape-twitter-transgender-labour/
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/labour-allows-male-activist-stand-womens-officer-identifies/

FloralBunting · 22/11/2019 00:51

That Twitter thread includes this corker-

Please may we put our heads together and work up some ways of helping people to understand EA2010, as mentioned. I think there may be people who truly believe that it includes discrete ‘rights’ for cis women (and cis men), despite the fact that EA does not even use ‘cis’.

Now, I know we're not 'cis' women, and this person is talking about women here (clearly men are an afterthought in parenthesis) but this is a statement that they think the EA2010 absolutely does not include any rights for women, and that the idea is so ridiculous they have put the words rights in scare quotes. I mean, do we need to list the protected characteristics again?

Remind me again how 'trans rights' absolutely will not affect women's rights? Or do they simply mean 'Women have no rights, so why would anything affect that?' Jaysus.

OldCrone · 22/11/2019 01:03

they think the EA2010 absolutely does not include any rights for women, and that the idea is so ridiculous they have put the words rights in scare quotes.

I'm not sure that the EA2010 does include rights for women. From what I've been reading today, there's nothing definitive that says people with a GRC can be excluded from single sex spaces for their acquired legal sex. In fact, there seems to be more evidence that they can't.

Which is why self-ID is so dangerous.

Melroses · 22/11/2019 01:04

despite the fact that EA does not even use ‘cis’.

Ha Ha Ha Ha - who'dda thought it?

FloralBunting · 22/11/2019 01:05

Whatever bastardization occurs due to the GRA or any reform thereof, one of the protected characteristics in the EA2010 is sex. I get that this has been weakened by successive utter fucking cobblers, but it's there, and this person seemed to think that it wasn't.

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