Campaigners for gender recognition law should avoid media

[Macareaux]

Worrying

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/campaigners-for-gender-recognition-law-should-avoid-media/5102234.article

Thanks @HandsOffMyRights for the link. Very informative.

TRAs want to destroy Women’s rights. Why should we concede any of them?

Transgender individuals already have the same rights as everyone else in the UK.

Trump2016
Can anyone tell me: what are you prepared to concede to TRAs?

I call Chestertons Fence and say this is the wrong question. Why do single sex spaces and services exist? What rights do women have that you think we don't need?

Yes, inebriati. Why are women on the back foot here? What compromises do TRAs offer?

The original GRA was the concession (not that women were actually asked about that either).

Indeed.

Also:

Why do children who identify as transgender not need safeguarding?
Why do children who identify as transgender get offered harmful experimental treatment which has no long term follow up and for which the initial results have not been written up and subject to peer scrutiny?
Why are young gender non-conforming children being told they can chose to be a ‘boy’ or ‘girl’ when it is impossible to change sex, rather than being told it is ok for a boy to dislike stereotypical boy toys and play with girls, dress up like a Disney princess and wear makeup?

Thanks all. So, is there necessarily an opposition between trans rights and women’s rights? What are the primary examples here? I get the issue around giving up single sex spaces, which I suppose you would say is a violation of the rights to physical integrity and privacy. What are the other rights women are being asked to give up?

Rather than rehash everything here for one person, perhaps it would make more sense for trump2016 to read some stuff that's already there.

General issues here.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwittsnOq4DmAhUVTxUIHaXfCKYQFjAAegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2FTalk%2Fwomensrights%2F3145470-Break-it-down-for-me&usg=AOvVaw2QHMTIYDONeIcc_Qz721NVF

And on whether our fears are based in reality or fantasy,

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwj4l5SbrIDmAhWqVRUIHXsdC38QFjAAegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2FTalk%2Fwomens_rights%2F3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread&usg=AOvVaw3SOYl4Mpdhr8-dRsgF6UzT

Okay @Birdsfoottrefoil, so there is also a tension between the rights of the child and trans rights. There can be varying opinions about what is in the best interests of the child. The concern seems to be about defaults. I.e. what options are we offering to children and young people who are gender non-conforming in the default. Do you think there is an age when young people are mature enough to make up their own minds?

Thanks @ErrolTheDragon

Heads up on a very unobvious piece of MN etiquette - people generally don't use the @ thing to reference posters who are actively engaged on a thread. It sends an email notification - eventually, often as not it arrives well after that poster has already responded so it can be annoying. If you want to reference a poster just put their name, or an obvious abbreviation thereof, between a pair of asterisks which will bold it.
Ta.

Aha, cheers.

The concern seems to be about defaults. I.e. what options are we offering to children and young people who are gender non-conforming in the default. Do you think there is an age when young people are mature enough to make up their own minds?

I can't speak for others, but for me the concern is about the overall message that we are giving to children and young people.

As a feminist, my views have always been along the lines of: Males and females are equal, and your sex should not affect your life choices in any way. Everyone should be able to choose their own style, hobbies, friends, job, living conditions etc without being restricted by their sex. Sex is only relevant where the physical differences between males and females are important, or where different treatment is necessary in order to address historical discrimination. So, in circumstances such as hospitals, prisons, sport, shared spaces where women may be vulnerable. Also women's campaign groups, such as abortion rights, that relate directly to our biology.

Trans rights activists (and the gender ideology that is being taught in schools and through both mainstream and social media) seem to me to have a very different message.

Their message seems to be along the lines of: Gender is of utmost importance to individuals and the way they live their life. Everyone has a gender identity, and for most people this identity 'aligns' with their biological sex, so that their sex feels right in some way. If you do not experience this internal sense of an identity that aligns with your sex, you are 'trans'. This means that you are part of a vulnerable group who have a high incidence of self-harm and suicide. It may also mean that your body does not match your internal gender identity. If this is the case, this will cause you all sorts of problems. You should therefore be allowed to change your body permanently in order to make it match your internal gender identity as closely as possible. In this way, your biological sex will be changed (or your true sex will be revealed).

My problem, my concern, is with this trans narrative. It is simply not true that everyone experiences an internal sense of gender. It is incredibly damaging to suggest that children and young people should be able to label their gender identity and decide if they are 'really' men, women, both or neither.

some posters are throwing the term 'trans rights' around very glibly here

I'd love a translation of what it means?

the right to use single sex spaces set aside for the opposite sex?
the right to compete in single sex sports against members of the opposite sex?
the right to access special provisions set aside for members of a particular sex due to the discrimination they face for being a member of that sex, even though you don't share that sex, or therefore, that particular discrimination?

what are these 'trans rights' we're discussing here?

The problem with trans rights is that they are demanding the right to be perceived by others in the way they perceive themselves, which is not only silly but completely unenforceable.

The term "Nice Guys" does not refer to men who are actually nice. It refers to men who believe they are God's gift to women while being complete douchebags. Their view of themselves is quite flawed from an outsider perspective.

GC feminists are constantly told we are not real feminists, so the right to self-identification (and having one's self-ID supported by others) is clearly a one- way street.

At the end of the day, nobody has the right to be perceived by others in the way they perceive themselves.

handsoffmyrights
I instantly thought of that conference when reading the article linked by the op, and Scotland, where the almost total lack of consultation with women nearly saw changes railroaded through.

What are trans rights? I would guess TRAs would say:

• Right to non-discrimination on the basis of gender identity
• Right to private and family life
• Right to recognition before the law
• Right to health (including mental health)

And in some parts of the world, right to life and right to physical integrity

Why do you think they don’t have that?

We discriminate on the basis of sex not gender identity.

Oh that's timely Trump2016.

The right to health is not an achievable right. Nobody has that, and as a human rights activist you should know that.

I was about to post that the right to demand a particular health treatment is also not a current or achievable right, because doctors cannot and should not be required to provide treatments against their clinical judgement. The right to refuse health treatment is absolute, however.

That's why some actual evidence that putting anyone on cross sex hormones actually has positive outcomes would be helpful to those doctors who are making those clinical decisions in a rapidly changing social setting. And of course, why the use of GnRH agonists to distort normal puberty and crash development in adolescents, is, to say the least, controversial.

The right to life exists here, as in the Human Rights Act.

I'm not a human rights activist. Is it your job?

Interesting thoughts on the “trans narrative” **
Are there any reports broadly surveying trans people, shedding light on the “damage”? Ie people discussing how changing legal gender has negatively impacted them? I only see these kind of articles, which seem pretty anecdotal: news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740

Permanent Temporary, yes clearly. My point was that in some parts of the world trans people are raped and killed. Chill your beans.