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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Hello any new people to these Mumsnet FWR fields...

144 replies

pombear · 19/11/2019 19:47

You may have got here via twitter threads on today's employment tribunal.

Or you've seen a couple of women's talks or events, women's voices, women's art, yet again, be attacked and closed down by trans rights activists who want (mainly) women to stop talking about things they don't agree with. Those women might not be even actually 'talking'. they just happened to retweet opinions that other's don't like.

Maybe you're just horrified that a 'parenting site' could host 'bigots' and 'phobes' and you've just come for a look around to see how awful women can be?

A couple of things:

a) the discussion about concern for women's rights has been going on on this board for many years. Some people will use acronyms you might not be familiar with. Some people may say things that seem a bit 'wtf' to you - many of them have been involved in debate for many years and have had many discussions about the same themes you may be keen to explore. They might be a bit tired!

b) this is not a 'hive mind'. There are people here with a range of views. The great thing about this site is we're able to talk about that range of views, and discuss them (within the, at times, unfathomable rules). Take a look. Read some threads. Though, If you're looking for a 'safe space' in today's speak, this isn't it. Lots of opinions are voiced, from all aspects, some that you might not like.

Maybe take a look at this type of thread for nuanced and intelligent debate:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3738164-Fracks-reference-post

Or this one, for a great overview of the issues:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

c) This point might be difficult for those of you who have been told from other sources that this is an 'anti-trans site'. Women's rights do not = 'anti-trans'.

I know, right? It's a bit controversial!

If you give yourself time to read the linked threads above, or just wander around these boards, you may understand why this statement is true.

Take some time to hear many women's concerns about single-sex spaces, women's privacy and dignity, support for the need for single-sex women's prisons, women's refuges, and the concern for the health of young children who have gender dysphoria.

There are a couple of threads right now about women being 'de-platformed' and removed from talks, flights, etc.

Why not take a minute to actually go and look at what those women are actually saying. Many of us might not agree with everything they say - we're all different. We've been able to disagree on this site.

What world would you like to inhabit?

One that is allowed to discuss these issues.

Or one that is told that to discuss the reality of sex is either an illogical fallacy, a conspiracy theory cooked up in the '70s, a 'young belief', or wrong unless you're schooled by mainly older males who now present and identify as women.

From my experience, this board welcomes many perspectives. If people disagree, that's not a 'pile-on' , that's just something we used to call 'lots of people disagree with your opinion'.

OP posts:
SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 01:40

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APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 01:45

Disappointed.

Oh noes, whatever will we do?

BoreOfWhabylon · 22/11/2019 01:47

Bless Smile

SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 01:49

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APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 01:52

The OP clearly said 'maybe' you have, several times. Not 'i assume you have no knowledge'.

You really need to get over yourself. You are making yourself look like a right twat.

SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 01:55

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APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 01:58

Your conflicting opinion appears to be on the level of a toddler not getting the right sammich.

But crack on, it is quite amusing watching you in action.

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:00

Great to see all the de-lurkers.

beestripey
Am not particularly new but frequently AWOL. What is this employment tribunal please? I have missed a lot lately.

Two cases in two days. Maya Forstater who was fired for her gender critical views. And has taken her erstwhile employer to court.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3743214-maya-forstater-court-case

And Harry Miller who was visited by the police for his gc views as they wanted to 'check his thinking'. He took them to court.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3748367-Good-luck-Harry-The-Owl

SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 02:07

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APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 02:09

Thanks for the info.

OccasionalKite · 22/11/2019 02:10

R U aright, hun?

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:11

One of the interesting things to come out of the Harry Miller judicial review today was the judge saying

- I have become familiar with term TERF. It is a derogatory term used by those who seek to deplatform those who hold different views.

Good to get that said out loud.

Creepster · 22/11/2019 02:13

Well fiddle dee dee, SalzburgSoup.
If the consciousness raising that goes on here is too elementary for you there is no need for you to waste your time telling us what we already know.

SalzburgSoup · 22/11/2019 02:20

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BarbaraStrozzi · 22/11/2019 02:22

Yes, I liked the fact the judge said that, Datun.

Other things I have found really useful are the concept of "sealioning", where a poster appears in order to make "oh so reasonable requests for information and answers to questions" over and over again, monopolising everyone else's time and attention and preventing interesting discussion. Similar to "me-railing" when a poster makes threads all about them and their own emotional response to what's posted, rather than about the issue at hand.

If you see a couple of pages where 50% or so of posts are from one poster, generally one or other of these forms of (sometimes deliberate, sometimes accidental) disruption are going on.

Fortunately there is a remedy: grey rock. If you think someone is doing this, you simply ignore them and talk round them, name checking the posters you actually want to talk to. Bit like ignoring a toddler tantrum.

Anyway, welcome, lurkers and new people drawn here by recent court cases etc.

APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 02:26

Reading through the Harry twitter thread today was mesmerising. It really is worth reading from top to bottom.

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:29

Reading through the Harry twitter thread today was mesmerising. It really is worth reading from top to bottom.

It really was.

"It's not even in the foothills of harassment!"

APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 02:32

'I think you've made all our points already judge'

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:33

"How can you have a hate incident with no evidence of hate?"

APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 02:41

Judge - phobia is a particularly strong word. What do you say it means?

Counsel for P - its almost irrelevant what it means

**

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:43

🤣 he actually never said a truer word

APerkyPumpkin · 22/11/2019 02:44

Exactly...anyway I am going to try and get some sleep.

Datun · 22/11/2019 02:45

👍

definitelygc · 22/11/2019 03:33

@SalzburgSoup I'm new here and also have a pretty extensive background in feminist thought, including being part of campaign groups etc. Personally I thought it was pretty clear the OP was not aimed at me but rather at people who might be thinking about this stuff for the first time and cluttering up the board with basic questions.

You have every right to say it's patronising (as you have) and others have every right to disagree with you (as they have). It's almost impossible to get the tone right when you're typing like this so I think whether an individual post comes across as patronising or not is a pretty boring debate to have. We're not going to get structural change, as you mention, by debating "the lens" of a Mumsnet post.

I've not heard anyone on here claim to be "radical" (apart from in a tongue in cheek way). That's a label that seems to have been foisted upon this group. And I don't think anyone genuinely thinks Mumsnet is going to be the thing that overthrows the patriarchy.

However, there are some people who started on these boards who are now at the very sharp end of this and I'm interested to hear what they have to say. As I'm sure you're aware, one of these women was up in court this week fighting for all of our rights to talk about feminism without losing our jobs. Deeds not words and I'm grateful to her for that.

user1473069303 · 22/11/2019 06:46

Hi all,

I've been lurking around these parts for the past few weeks, on the one hand enjoying the eloquence and intelligence of the posters but on the other very shocked about the subject matter being discussed.

So it's OK to not believe in a god, it's also more than OK to reject the flat earth theory, but refusing to believe that people can change sex - which is a fact of life - can land you in a world of pain. It is fucking terrifying.

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