Defence lawyer says that the Gender Recognition Act has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners

[stumbledin]

This is about the situation in Ireland but thought I would post as it is interesting that some law practitioners are looking at the illogical situation in terms of legal rights. (There was an earlier thread about lawyers in Australia? New Zealand? questioning the right of clinic to start children on puberty blockers.)

^The law is challenging for the courts and the IPS since there is, potentially, a safety issue for women inmates housed alongside a male-bodied prisoner.

Currently, a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner is being held in Limerick women’s prison.

This is understood to be the first time that an inmate, registered as male at birth, has been housed in a women’s prison in Ireland.

When before the court last July, the prisoner was in possession of a gender recognition certificate.

It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

The prisoner is accompanied by two officers at all times while in the common areas of the detention facility.^

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

“I don’t think the legislation envisaged the ability of transgender people to be able to self-declare; and it didn’t foresee the problems it would cause if a transgender, self-declared person was held in a mixed prison,” he said.

I thought the legislation was in order that transgender people could self-declare, so I don't understand why they didn't anticipate people actually doing that. Or is there another bit of legislation being discussed here?

They thought that to “live as a woman” instead of “as a man” would be so degrading to any male, none would humiliate himself by taking advantage of the opportunity.

They were so riven with castration anxiety, they imagined that any man who’d even metaphorically renounce his “manhood” surely had to be, internally, that un-endowed and unthreatening creature known as “woman.”

They had no conception of AGP, because why would a man want to fuck himself when he could fuck a woman?

In all the above circumstances, surely no un-manned man could pose a risk to anyone — that was what they thought.

Their errors are all rooted in the symbolic connection of penis to power.

Wow, BickerinBrattle, you're likely right there.

I thought the legislation was in order that transgender people could self-declare, so I don't understand why they didn't anticipate people actually doing that. Or is there another bit of legislation being discussed here?

I may be way off, but I am thinking that the direction on prisoners was developed before they began taking this direction with regard to self-declaration.

Also, it's not as if people didn't TELL them this would happen.

Not proper people, obvs. Just women. Maybe that was the problem.

FFuckSAKE

Their errors are all rooted in the symbolic connection of penis to power.

This.

Yes Bicker, spot on.

I thought I read on here that prisons in Ireland were still to be separated by sex, despite self-id.

Bicker - beautifully and accurately put

Er....we told you so?

Measures that should be taken include ... body searches which are conducted in accordance with the expressed gender of the transgender prisoner.
So female prison officers have to search male-bodied prisoners.
Bicker nailed it.

Isn’t it interesting. Ireland and other jurisdictions where they have self-ID are held up as some kind of best practice model by U.K. politicians.

And yet THEY ARE WAY BEHIND.

The U.K. government have introduced self-ID into prisons illegally, by stealth.

Now it turns out that in one of the few countries where this has already been made law have suddenly come up against reality and are going “shit... we may have created a problem”.

Whereas the U.K., who have rushed blindly ahead have already had problems, but as none of it is official, they have to be swept under the carpet.

I’ve been thinking for a while that the U.K. hold these other places up as models. But I live in one of those countries and because there’s a huge difference in the way people act compared with in the U.K., it simply isn’t a comparable situation. People here tend naturally to uphold the law. I think that’s long gone in wider British society.

And it’s noteable too that in Ireland, though they’ve gone ahead and followed the letter of the law, they obviously immediately anticipated problems and gave this prisoner “guards” ostensibly to protect them, but in reality more likely the other way round.

It’s just very revealing. The U.K. appears to be heading towards a situation of anarchy because the police and prison services are being directed to ignore the law.

I thought the legislation was in order that transgender people could self-declare

It was, because there's nothing else other than self declaration. Reforming the legislation is just about how and to whom one self declares. Anyway, transition is a treatment, not a correction.

I'm still not understanding why the sex exemption is not used. Does Ireland not have that as part of their legislation?

More on this particular prisoner in Ireland here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3644511-Transgender-sex-offender-in-womens-prison-in-Ireland

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3655875-Irish-feminists-what-the-hell-is-happening-over-there

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3691029-Fully-male-sex-offender-demands-and-given-access-to-womens-prison-under-self-id

www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261

www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/male-born-transgender-sex-offender-20051834

I thought I read on here that prisons in Ireland were still to be separated by sex, despite self-id

Yes, I also read there was an exemption in the GRA specifically for prisons whereby even males with a GRC can be excluded from women's prisons, Nic W. of Fair Play for Women spoke about that.

Maybe Limerick women's prison is ignoring the exemption?
Seeing as most organisations are now ignoring the exemptions in the equality act that allow females to retain their spaces, that's probably what's happened here.

Apologies for posting again so quickly, but it crossed my mind the other day.

Any man considering a crime spree, who thinks it might be nicer to spend time behind bars in a women’s prison, or indeed simply would take pleasure from messing with the system, has every incentive to go and get himself a GRC before he starts.

If self-ID is introduced, it won’t be long before this becomes a common practice.

Bickerin, that's pretty much exactly what a male friend said when I objected to self ID. (That male offenders wouldn't demean themselves I mean, not your more sophisticated understanding of the situation.) I thought at the time it was so naive, sure enough cases emerging on a regular basis since.

Also, body searches according to gender identity mentioned. Again. I know prison officers are a no nonsense bunch, but given this offender's grim record, female officers having to do searches is so inappropriate.

Bickerin Yes, that's well put.

They sound very mixed up to me.

I thought it was only transwomen in possession of a grc at the time of the crime who would be sent to a female prison. To eliminate chancers. (A few years ago when I first read about it, only about 200 had been issued in Ireland).

This person has a grc.

So is the 'self identification' they're talking about something to do with their presentation? Does this person look, sound, and act exactly like you would expect from a man? Is that the problem?

And yes to whoever said criminals will just be applying for a grc as a matter of course.

Also, body searches according to gender identity mentioned. Again. I know prison officers are a no nonsense bunch, but given this offender's grim record, female officers having to do searches is so inappropriate.

I would just hope that prison officers will have anticipated that & be ready to change their gender identity at short notice.

The naivety of those enacting these pieces of legislation never ceases to astound.

In the past men have gone to the lengths of training as teachers, priests, doctors, setting up entire charities all so they can gain access to women and children and abuse them. Yet somehow it is unthinkable that the same sort of men would go through all the hassle of filling in a form for the same purpose?

Datun, I assumed they meant the GRC itself since in Ireland that is obtained by self ID. Would be interesting to know whether the GRC predated the crime or just the trial, and how they present - but not solve anything.

I would just hope that prison officers will have anticipated that & be ready to change their gender identity at short notice.

It has occurred to me that there are abundant employment opportunities in self ID for big burly 6'5" blokes willing to 'identify' as women at opportune moments.

a pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy, male-to-female transgender prisoner

Gosh that's an unwieldy phrase. If only there were a simple way to describe such a person.

@BickerinBrattle that's an amazing post