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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Identity ideology - New Religious Movement in formation?

58 replies

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/11/2019 09:45

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and come from a cultural background where belief in some sort of god and religion is a part of nearly everyone's life. It doesn't even occur to most people that belief in god or religion is optional; they simply perpetuate and parrot whatever ideology they were raised with, even very clever individuals that I know who are doctors, scientists, etc. Religion and culture overlap greatly and people seem unable or unwilling to question things or don't see the point in upsetting the status quo.

Anyway my intense love for science, logic and understanding how things worked meant it was only a matter of time before my doubts about The Truth became too numerous and I had to admit it was a load of shite. I looked at other mainstream religions and saw the same characteristics and realised they were shite too. Eventually I had to admit I was an atheist.

However, I have retained a grim fascination for understanding religious beliefs, how religions and ideologies evolve, why do people believe in things that are demonstrably untrue or have no real evidence, how belief systems attract new followers and perpetuate itself etc.
I would have liked to maybe pursue this lifelong interest as some sort of academic research, but I don't think I am cut out to be a detached researcher in this topic. It generates a very visceral response in me of hate, disgust, anger and sadness due to my experiences with the Jehovah's Witnesses and my personal journey as a religious apostate.

Nevertheless I still ponder on these topics as an amateur. I find human behaviour frustratingly illogical but predominantly predictable and I have noticed certain common threads that run through ideologies and beliefs over time.
While I am just as fallible as anyone else and not immune to succumbing to any kind of ideology, I find my background as an apostate helps me stay a bit alert, a bit sensitive to certain words or phrases, a bit wary when I get a 'whiff of bullshit', feel my skin crawl or my spidey-sense starts tingling especially when everyone around me seems to be going along with something.

I plan on buying Eileen Barker's book on New Religious Movements to learn more, but in the meantime I can't help but view the current phenomenon around Gender Identity ideology as the birth and formation of a New Religious Movement.

Religious and faith movements have come and gone for millennia. Humans seem predisposed to grasping for order and sense in a chaotic world and find different routes for this purpose. It does appear, though, that the more chaotic and unstable the world, the more likely people are to turn to magical thinking and superstitious beliefs as a way of protecting themselves or distracting themselves from the reality they live in.
People who are happy, healthy and feel a sense of purpose and connection with their communities feel less inclined to jump onto bandwagons and movements.

While global standards of living have increased overall, the past 10 years or so has seen wealth inequalities increase in Western economies. The self-destructive political ideology of austerity and neoliberalism has meant that investment in public services has declined drastically as well as economic productivity. Extracting short term gain for the wealthy at the expense of our collective long-term future is the goal. Compared to previous generations, people are earning less, in less secure jobs with paltry pensions, unable to climb the housing ladder due to extremely inflated property prices and lack of social housing and so on.

While membership of organised religions are falling, people's desire for grasping onto beliefs in a chaotic world haven't decreased. The rise of 'woo' is a testament to this. As funding for physical and mental health provision has fallen, the rise in energy healing, crystal healing, the bizarre devotion for 'eastern philosophies' and so on is becoming popular to cater to people's physical aches and pains and mental health issues. Food fads and various ways to remove 'toxic' things internally and externally keep appearing. We have the looming threat of climate change on our doorstep, so it's easier for people to block it out and focus on selfies, cosmetic surgeries, fashions in the quest to unearth and celebrate 'who you really are'. Much easier to focus on the individual and the superficial because it's actually pretty difficult to face deep seated, collective problems.

Gender Identity ideology appears to me to be a way of blocking out collective problems and focusing on pointless individualistic issues that ultimately have no bearing on ourselves and our species. Pronoun 'crimes' are more devastating and infuriating than a lack of decent and affordable housing, for example.

Gender Identity ideology is fascinating because it is similar to many other types of NRMs but also has some differences due to rise in internet technology.

NRMs tend to appeal predominantly to relatively well educated and middle class young people. They are not burdened by the responsibilities of looking after young or old family members, so have the time to invest in these activities. Women seem especially susceptible to NRMs.

These ideologies don't necessarily have to have a religious or spiritual element. They can arise from all sorts of political, social and philosophical movements. The underlying structure is the same. People looking for meaning, purpose, community and unconditional acceptance (except these forms of acceptance are rarely unconditional).

Conventional NRMs have followers congregate in physical spaces, maybe a retreat or ashram, but due to the internet, you can now have online and networked social spaces as an easy substitute. A lot of young people spend considerable time online and Gender Identity ideology is known to have crystallised and evolved in spaces like Tumblr. They are least likely to read traditional news sources and instead rely on alternative media for their news and facts. Online algorithms tend to show you only things you are interested in and the ability to block and ban material you disagree with means you have generated a very effective bubble of groupthink without having to live in a spiritual retreat for months or years.

Gender Identity ideology is a fairly decentralised movement i.e. there is no single figurehead leading it, but there are several key players. Powerful organisations like Stonewall lobby and influence society outside of the movement by promoting materials with their doctrines. Self-styled gurus are popular amongst the adherents on YouTube and Instagram - these non-binary and trans superstars showing believers how amazing their lives are and your life could be awesome like theirs too.

This is a movement in its infancy so we are currently seeing the expansion / proselytising phase. They need sufficient first generation converts if they are to carry on as a movement. All NRMs have this aggressive proselytising phase as far as I'm aware. This is because although they quickly gain followers and admirers, NRMs by their nature have very high turnovers. Very few followers become hardcore, long-term believers. Most followers remain loosely associated on the fringes and many lose interest after a few years. The novelty of the doctrines wear off and they find other movements that catch their attention or find the pressures of life don't leave them with time for such indulgences, or they feel disillusionment with the community and acceptance they were promised.

It will be interesting to see if this NRM manages to evolve into the more longer-term and stable phase. The subsequent generations born into this ideology due to their parents being adherents, will be more likely to question and rebel.
What happens when a teenager raised to have unquestioning faith in gender identity challenges their parents upon learning about the immutability of biological sex or the lack of evidence of a gendered soul. Will they be kicked out of home for disagreeing and rebelling? I think so.

Interested to hear what others think about this.

OP posts:
JoyceJeffries · 16/11/2019 09:58

I’m not sure I’m intellectual enough for this debate but I absolutely see TRAs as following a new religion.

I was raised a catholic and see so many similarities.
If you say I don’t believe that you can change sex you are guilty of heresy.
The chanting of TWAW is pretty much like saying “body of Christ”
TERFS are the non believers so can pretty much be treated as sub human
Transwomen are the priests (let’s not forget that priests didn’t have to bother with petty safe guarding rules)
Transmen are nuns (below transwomen)

There so may parallels. All religions are obsessed with power and control and every religion ever has placed penis owners at the top.

Melroses · 16/11/2019 10:12

Even less intellectual here Grin but seeing liberal religious groups enabling this.

LangCleg · 16/11/2019 10:27

I find human behaviour frustratingly illogical but predominantly predictable

Never a truer word spoken. I tend to mock this new ideology with religious terms - Woke Creationism, Woko Haram, etc. But black humour aside, it does seem fairly clear that secular societies turn to some form of godless religion in order to get by.

LangCleg · 16/11/2019 10:28

Transmen are nuns (below transwomen)

OMG! Yes!

Melroses · 16/11/2019 10:47

There is research that suggests there is part of the brain that responds to religious belief - there was something in New Scientist about it - will have to look.

Religions seem to be a reflection of societies. We had matriarchal religions when we were more pastoral, then there was Christianity from the rise of Roman civilisation, then Protestantism that came with the industrial revolution - so is genderism the religion that reflects the technology revolution?

LangCleg · 16/11/2019 10:50

Religions seem to be a reflection of societies. We had matriarchal religions when we were more pastoral, then there was Christianity from the rise of Roman civilisation, then Protestantism that came with the industrial revolution - so is genderism the religion that reflects the technology revolution?

That's insightful and there's almost certainly something in it.

hoodathunkit · 16/11/2019 11:10

I plan on buying Eileen Barker's book on New Religious Movements to learn more

Were you aware that Eileen Barker is an extremely controversial figure who is considered a cult apologist by many cult survivors and anti-cult activists?

She denies these allegtions here

links to sone concerns here
culteducation.com/apologist.html#Eileen_Barker

google for "Eileen Barker" and "cult apologist" to discover more

I have my own cornerns about INFORM (my pet mane for it is INFIRM) but these will wait for now as they are very outing

As for the OP I think that the trans rights movement isvery cult like.

The main reasons that this makes sense to me is because of a) the policing of language and b) the infiltration of statutory services via leadership training courses and diversity policies both of which have a long and inglorious history among cults

One of the things that cults (and some criminal organisations) do to victims is to create ritual initiations in which the victim makes a pedge of alliance to the group.

Very often this will involve making an announcement or committing an action that demonstrates that they have relinquished the normal, mundane world of reality and embraced a new life free from critical thinking and rational discourse.

Whether it involved accepting a fantastical imaginary deity or committing a sexually transgressive act the ritual demonstrates that the victim is now part of the group, accepts the new "reality" and has burned their bridges.

Once the victim has made their pledge or been "initiated" the people in control understand that they can further manipulate the victim with relative impunity.

When I encounter the whole TWAW narrative accepted within statutory organisations it is apparent to me that much kool aid has been consumed by people of influence.

Some of the sexuality and gender awareness training for young children that I have seen is IMO child abuse.

It seems to me that our society has been brainwashed and that if the UK was a person that person would be suffering from a serious mental illness.

There is something profoundly wrong with our body politic.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 16/11/2019 11:18

Yes it is a faith based ideology.

I know this is a feminism board but my objection to trans ideology has always been rooted in my atheism. I don't do unsubstantiated be it gods or gendered souls.

And unlike the non-existence of gods I can prove transwomen are NOT women in a myriad of ways. Which makes efforts to force me to pretend otherwise even less acceptable.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/11/2019 11:22

Transmen are nuns (below transwomen)

And just like nuns their job is to control the other female adherents (male adherents don't have to listen to them unless they're children, and sometimes not even then).

JoyceJeffries · 16/11/2019 11:24

The desperate need to control language is a classic religion manoeuvre. Up until quite recently blasphemy was illegal in the UK but now we are moving towards compelled speech.

It really is quite astonishing.

XXCoffeeHoneyBread · 16/11/2019 11:24

Genderism is absolutely a (cultish) belief system as logical to me as flat eartherism or scientology.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 16/11/2019 11:32

The desperate need to control language is a classic religion manoeuvre

It is one used by ideological movements whether they are rooted in religion or politics.

I have long thought it isn't religion that's the problem but faith. People who have faith won't listen to reason whether that faith is in Christianity, communism or transgenderism.

MrGsFancyNewVagina · 16/11/2019 11:32

I was actually shocked when I read this!

Transwomen are the priests
Transmen are nuns (below transwomen)

That is such an appropriate way of putting it. 👏🏼

LangCleg · 16/11/2019 11:34

And just like nuns their job is to control the other female adherents (male adherents don't have to listen to them unless they're children, and sometimes not even then).

Precisely.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 16/11/2019 11:35

If everyone was told that there was a new religion and that it MUST be followed or else and that every other belief was now invalid. Then we will be force feeding it to your children so they will grow up not questioning it, and that any disagreement would be punished.
There would be bloody uproar.

Yet this is exactly what IS happening and people are blindly going along with it.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/11/2019 11:36

If you disrespect a priest one of the nuns will smack you round the back of the head. As will the more enthusiastic members of the congregation (non-trans TRAs). In fact those are often the people who smack hardest.

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/11/2019 11:38

JoyceJeffries and Melroses absolutely no intention on my part to have the conversation as something simply for 'intellectuals'. :)

I think sometimes a lot of academia and intellectual thinking can be very counterproductive in these sort of topics. It's not a wholesale criticism of the very intelligent people in academia and the useful research that they do, but things like postmodern thinking and queer theory etc were very much a product of intellectuals and it does not translate well into the real world where ordinary people face the consequences of trying to implement such absurdities.

As LangCleg pointed out, you've both made really insightful points ... I like the framing of transwomen as priests and transmen as nuns! Females always occupying the lower rungs of any institution.

OP posts:
andyoldlabour · 16/11/2019 11:43

"If you disrespect a priest one of the nuns will smack you round the back of the head."

Crikey, that takes me back a few decades. I remember getting a clip around the ear from my mum, when I was seven or eight, because I came back from school and asked her why the priest had so many wives Smile

andyoldlabour · 16/11/2019 11:43

Nonny, thanks for such a brilliant thread.

PencilsInSpace · 16/11/2019 11:56

Brilliant post OP, yes the parallels are clear in many ways.

You write very well and your background provides additional insight that's not necessarily available to those of us who did not have a strongly religious upbringing.

If you don't feel detached enough to do research it would be great if you could find another way to write further and develop your ideas (as well as on here, I mean Smile)

Have you read this? I have to admit I have not read all of it because it's very long!

areomagazine.com/2018/12/18/postmodern-religion-and-the-faith-of-social-justice/

HandsOffMyRights · 16/11/2019 12:01

Thanks to all the posters with links to books/research on religion, cults/ideology.

There are many parallels.

I am angry that my child's school teaches gender ideology as fact thanks to Stonewall. I said to the HT would he teach children that it's possible to walk on water or come back from the dead as fact in RPE?

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/11/2019 12:07

hoodathunkit thanks a lot for those links! I shall have a listen later on today. I had only recent come across Eileen Barker and her work.... Like a few days ago. :D

There's not a lot of useful research into cults and religious movements. As Arnold mentioned it's less about religion and more about faith, so cults can arise in social and political movements that have little to do with spirituality.
I liked that Eileen Barker was trying to frame very diverse groups into New Religious Movements, to avoid the default negative connotations associated with the term 'cult' and trying to explain the phenomenon and understand how they evolve in response to internal and external forces.

Don't know anything about the Inform group. Will look into into it some more. :)

OP posts:
Michelleoftheresistance · 16/11/2019 12:13

If everyone was told there was a new religion and it MUST be followed or else, and that every other belief was now invalid...

It's happened before. Henry VIII and the dissolution of the monasteries, there are a lot of parallels. Not least a strong political agenda and a bunch of useful extremists leaping aboard a passing bandwagon. It included people being forced to sign declarations of Right Think. Then as now, it happens slowly, in a political context, and now as then the penalties for openly speaking out are heavy. People are afraid. There were resurgences of this all through Mary's reign and later Cromwell and his Puritans.

To look at the history of Protestant/Catholicism battling in the UK over the centuries, there have been some truly terrible times of people being tortured and executed for being caught in possession of the wrong book or attending a meeting. In all this time, sometimes one faith rose above the other, but it was never possible to stamp out one belief system to impose another, even with the full weight of government and capital punishment behind it. Only to reach a point of coexistence and mutual acceptance that transubstantiation is an actual thing for some and not for others. Equally the Roman Catholic church never fully succeeded in stamping out Paganism. Throughout history this has never worked .

Baffling that the sparkly rainbow glitter spin been given to 'inclusion' and 'intersectionality' by the TRA political lobby has more in common with Cromwell's Puritans than it does with any modern belief.

Michelleoftheresistance · 16/11/2019 12:15

On the plus side, we can re utilise all those old priest holes for when Stonewall bang on the door shouting 'are you housing a GC woman!'

Birdsfoottrefoil · 16/11/2019 12:29

Watch out - I got a strike for linking a certain popular ideology to a type of fanatical belief system...

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