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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tut your worries away, women!

51 replies

pombear · 15/11/2019 22:00

I know this has been referenced elsewhere, but I though it deserved its own thread.

Never fear , women, a man is here to tell you how to deal with male-bodied people in your female-bodied spaces:-

twitter.com/amoozeboosh/status/1195049739148054529
@amoozeboosh
Nov 14
that's my actual gym, run by @GlasgowCC , i've not made that up. does that sound fair to you? for me to lose my peace of mind and for men to be able to come in and observe me and my kids so long as they say they're women?

@JolyonMaugham
Follow Follow @JolyonMaugham
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Replying to @amoozeboosh @GappyTales and 3 others
That would be really poor behaviour, of x, to be so insensitive to your (understandable) feelings. If I was you in that situation, I expect I'd tut loudly and move away.

twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1195054474458521601

Women - just tut loudly and move away!

Amazing new strategy we just hadn't considered before Jo explained it to us!

OP posts:
groundcontroltomontydon · 16/11/2019 07:12

All these men arguing away women's spaces
It's the woke outlet misogynists have been looking for since overt sexism became unfashionable

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2019 08:20

Wasn't there a post on here from a civil servant who had been called in by HR because they had gone into an office toilet that had been made mixed sex, had seen a person they read as a transwoman in there, had turned on their heel and left?

Yes (more or less, the OP wasn't the person, it was an example their HR used) and it led to fabulous former Mumsnetter Trousering asking another QC contact if allowing male crossdressers for sexual reasons (under the trans umbrella according to Stonewall) into women's spaces could constitute sexual harassment of women and girls under the EA.

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2019 08:23

PermanentTemporary, I think that was a fictional example of "transphobia" that needed addressing used in training for civil servants.

You're right about the training but they said the "incident" had actually happened there.

Have posted the thread link as that thread is a good read.

HandsOffMyRights · 16/11/2019 08:39

His tweets give his sex away.

Men have no idea what it's like to be a woman, to grow up looking over your shoulder, to have to scan your space for threats, to be aware when walking home after dark, to always be on alert.

I was watching the Yorkshire Ripper documentary recently. If only his female victims had tutted when he bludgeoned them with that hammer.

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2019 08:57

I realise he's a top QC but the monumental blind spot he has on this makes him sound like a complete idiot.

teawamutu · 16/11/2019 09:26

Massive twatbadger on this issue, which is a shame because on others he's been excellent. Unfortunately his blindness and arrogance on this issue makes me question how principled he really is.

Is he angling for the stonewall job or something?

SydneyCarton · 16/11/2019 09:43

The Maggie O’Farrell book is £2 with free prime delivery on Amazon Smile

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2019 09:43

Unfortunately his blindness and arrogance on this issue makes me question how principled he really is.

Not very. His tweets basically shade into trolling women and gloating.

Floisme · 16/11/2019 10:02

Tut and move, ladies. I know Twitter is a cesspit but just occasionally it is absolutely glorious. How is that three or four words can reveal so much?

I know this is serious but I am choosing to laugh because that will hurt far more.

LangCleg · 16/11/2019 10:22

I realise he's a top QC but the monumental blind spot he has on this makes him sound like a complete idiot.

We're not supposed to say that some men are romantically attracted to the idea of themselves as women and it blinds them to everything else - so I won't suggest that is a thing that could ever be true, it's been debunked, it's bigoted, it's ludicrous, totally not a thing and then I won't be deleted-.

But I wonder if we're allowed to say that some men are romantically attracted to idea of themselves as white knights and it blinds them to everything else?!

Cos I'm pretty sure that's Jolyon's problemo.

theflushedzebra · 16/11/2019 10:34

TemporaryPermanent I googled the Maggie O'Farrell book - that first chapter is online www.bookbrowse.com/excerpts/index.cfm/book_number/3732/page_number/3/i-am-i-am-i-am#excerpt

It's blown me away as such a perfect descriptor of the instinct of sensing danger that women have, and the fact that men have no clue that we have (by necessity) developed this instinct.

In this extract, the Policeman would be represented by Jolyon Maugham - a man belittling and disbelieving a woman who knows instinctively she was in danger.

"So," the policeman says, leaning heavily on his papers, "you went for a walk, you met a man, you walked with him, he was a bit peculiar, but then you got home okay. Is that what you're telling me?"

"He put," I say, "the strap of his binoculars around my neck."

"And then what?"

"He ..." I stop. I hate this man with his thick eyebrows, his beery paunch, his impatient stubby fingers. I hate him more, perhaps, than the man beside the tarn. "He showed me some ducks on the lake."

The policeman doesn't even try to hide his smile. "Right," he says, and shuts his book with a snap. "Sounds terrifying."

How should I have articulated to this policeman that I could sense the urge for violence radiating off the man, like heat off a stone? I have been over and over that moment at the desk in the police station, asking myself, was there anything I could have done differently, anything I might have said that would have changed what happened next?

I could have said: I want to see your supervisor, I want to see the person in charge. I would do this now, age forty-three, but then? It didn't occur to me it was possible.

I could have said: Listen to me, that man didn't hurt me but he will hurt someone else. Please find him before he does.

I could have said that I have an instinct for the onset of violence. That, for a long time, I seemed to incite it in others for reasons I never quite understood. If, as a child, you are struck or hit, you will never forget that sense of your own powerlessness and vulnerability, of how a situation can turn from benign to brutal in the blink of an eye, in the space of a breath. That sensibility will run in your veins, like an antibody. You learn fairly quickly to recognise the approach of these sudden acts against you: that particular pitch or vibration in the atmosphere. You develop antennae for violence and, in turn, you devise a repertoire of means to divert it.

Incredible writing.

theflushedzebra · 16/11/2019 10:40

How do we, the members of the female sex, articulate to men like Jolyon the danger posed to women in mixed-sex spaces?

The female-only spaces that women have carved out for ourselves due to the very dangers that members of the male sex present to us - Jolyon is gleefully giving away to the males who want into them, and implying that we're bigots for good measure.

Just like the Policeman, Jolyon doesn't believe us. Like the Policeman, Jolyon laughs at us.

Uncompromisingwoman · 16/11/2019 10:47

Good to see that Civil Service thread revived. It was a very chilling example of how women civil servants are being coerced at every level into complying with male demands. And as the civil service are at the heart of government (and many of them write those dire word salad letters that we get from MPs in response to our concerns about child safeguarding and women's safety)
It's a classic example of coercive control in the work place.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do

LizzieSiddal · 16/11/2019 10:56

He’s absolutely shown that men do not understand what it’s like to be a woman. Just as we’ve been saying all along.

And it’s depressing that a man can say such a dismissive and cruel thing to a woman, yet there are no wider consequences.

Uncompromisingwoman · 16/11/2019 11:12

He displays all the arrogance of the upper class male - no empathy or insight - just an overwhelming sense of his own superiority, power and entitlement.

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2019 11:58

Absolutely.

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2019 11:59

And when he hears something he can't argue with, or doesn't like, he blocks you, insignificant peasant that you are.

Floisme · 16/11/2019 12:16

It looks like a very bad case of Born to Rule Syndrome. Males of a certain class do seem very prone.

Thanks for the Maggie O'Farrell link - terrific piece of writing.

fascinated · 16/11/2019 12:31

God, that Maggie O’Farrell scene... that’s exactly what happened to me late one night ... that’s what I did..played along, maintained the illusion until I was close enough to a bar that I knew I could just about run to (I’m not fit and had heels on - not even high ones, but it was the last time I ever wore heels in my life) and then hit him and legged it.

So I got away, but it still left me traumatised. I have relived that incident (and what might have been) in my head at least once a week for twelve years now.

And no. I didn’t report it. Because I knew that would be the reaction.

Kantastic · 16/11/2019 12:41

Maugham strikes me as 100% pure narcissist who just happens to have his giant overinflated ego invested in his self-image as "a good guy."

So he's doing good on the Brexit front, he does okay in cases where women's rights are correlated with left-orthodoxy but he's never going to side with women over TRAs because he doesn't actually understand how to do moral reasoning, or how to empathise with anyone, particularly powerless people.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 16/11/2019 13:06

Sometimes that illusion is all we have; the illusion that there isn't anything to see, that there is no danger. The requirement to break that illusion just gives us an extra fraction of a second; it gives us a gossamer-thin moment of glamour (in the old sense of enchantment), a pretence of innocence that a predator has to get past. They will get past it. They will flash, they will strike, if they want to. But every now and then, the illusion will just give us an extra moment.

I used to hitchhike a lot when I was a teenager (I know - but I was an idiot). I once got into a lorry with a guy who started on about how kidnapping was a really great idea. He kept saying stuff like, 'when you see a beautiful flower in the desert you want to pick it and keep it for yourself' and I'd say, 'no, you should leave it there because then everyone can enjoy it'.

I was terrified. Obviously.

We kept up this weird pretence for ages, then he pulled into a petrol station and I fled. I had to hide behind parked cars until I was sure he had gone.

I should have tutted at him. Clearly. That would have solved it.

I found out later that that monster Bellfield was operating in the area I grew up in and - I think - picking up hitchhikers.

I don't think Jolyon Poshboy understands what men do to women AT ALL.

theflushedzebra · 16/11/2019 13:54

Jolyon seems to think that women should increase their risks of assault, or intimidation, or voyeurism, by males, because a few males identify as women. And we must put those males first. After all, we can call the police if any male acts inappropriately in an enclosed toilet or changing room Hmm

Hey Jolyon, here's an idea - how about we just try and prevent it happening at all - you know, by keeping places where women are vulnerable, women only? That age-old single sex system we had was put in place to protect women. Countries like India are still putting these measures in place to protect women - in the meantime, in the UK, they're taking them away!

Jolyon has no idea of safeguarding, or risk assessment - but then why would he? He's a tax barrister. He's a privileged male. I have no idea why he's even ploughed into this debate. It has nothing to do with him - he's being totally patriarchal, telling women what they should think and do.

teawamutu · 16/11/2019 13:54

I don't think Jolyon Poshboy understands what men do to women AT ALL.

Oh I think he does. Sort of. But he thinks the law can pick up the pieces afterwards, and that's better than curtailing men's choices as a precaution.

Thethiniceofanewday · 16/11/2019 13:55

He’s been told. Women have shared the ‘it never happens’ links with him. But he does not listen. It’s so disappointing because I really admire the work he’s done on things like the prorogation being unlawful.

theflushedzebra · 16/11/2019 14:07

The realisation that men like Jolyon, who I generally admire, have merely been paying lip service to the rights and concerns of women - but jump right out of their seats and start shouting for the rights of males who want to identify as women - I'm find it really difficult to process. It's a betrayal.