Tinder is making changes to improve the treatment of transgender people on its app.

[DeRigueurMortis]

Tinder seeks to tackle trans harassment www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50390028

Given I'm on a strike I'll leave it here fir discussion.

the only people who do select trans profiles are the ones who are genuinely open to dating them.

I have read an article by a transwoman (think it was one of the early well known cotton ceiling ones?) describing how potential partners attracted to transwomen as transwomen were unpleasant to them, because it was their male biology that the other person was attracted to. Their preference was for a biological female (so their right to know the difference and be specific about requirement was there) who was exclusively attracted to other biological females, as this confirmed their desire to be seen and treated as a biological female.

I understand that desire. I have sympathy for it. But the double standards, the inability to recognise or care about the other person having equal freedom of choice and respect- how ever unintentionally, this involves using the other person to meet a personal need and agenda. And ironically, using the person on the specific basis of their biology. Again it seems to be one rule for some and another rule for others.

That's the antithesis of a healthy relationship. MN have spent years supporting women to recognise the harmfulness of and to escape dynamics like this.

The sensible thing for all concerned is to add a 'trans' option in addition to male and female categories, so people can choose for themselves who they are willing to date. Dating apps by their nature are exclusive, apps like 'OK Cupid' take you through hundreds of questions in the attempt to narrow down choices and to find someone you might be compatible with. It's very detailed, you can indicate how strongly your beliefs on a whole range of issues are and whether or not agreement on these issues from a potential partner are a deal-breaker. This policy from Tinder is in direct opposition to that, disallowing users a choice on that very fundamental basis of attraction, sex. I'm guessing there will be an objection to adding a 'trans' category from the TRAs along with the male and female categories, because TRA transwomen insist they are real women, and really do seem to think they can force people to date them AS women, that it's a 'right'. Even when men such as Owen Jones are asked if they would date a transman, they tie themselves up in knots and can't bring themselves to answer honestly that it would be a big fat 'no'. This will not go well for Tinder.

To be honest I think a lot of these problems are a result of the fundamental lie that people can pick and choose their sex. If you demand the moon on a stick you are going to be disappointed. Some things simply aren't possible and ultimately it isn't a kindness to go along with the pretence that they are.

Ironically all the demands that the general population play along out of 'kindness' are in the real world deeply cruel.

That article is very light on detail...

It's fairly short on article tbh. But the teeny tiny bit that isn't a vox pop seems to be saying that they do need to let users filter out trans people if they are not interested in them as potential dates?

Their preference was for a biological female (so their right to know the difference and be specific about requirement was there) who was exclusively attracted to other biological females, as this confirmed their desire to be seen and treated as a biological female.

I understand that desire. I have sympathy for it.

I don’t. Not one iota of sympathy for them, if that’s the complaint they have. They want to use lesbians and a lesbian’s body to validate them, even if that validation comes at the expense of a young female being guilted into have sex with them, in order not to appear bigoted. I feel so sorry for young lesbians now, when I listen to my assistant (bi) and her sister (lesbian) talk about how much pressure they’re under. They actually lower their voices when talking to me about it. That’s the impact on them, because of the fear and harassment they are dealing with.

I don't understand why a trans woman would want to hide her identity in this particular scenario. Speaking from experience it's not as if there is a lack of men (I have no idea about women) willing to date and form relationships with transsexual people. It's very likely and almost certain to come out at some point, sooner rather than later for many. Instead of offering some form of protection or validation, the only probable result I can foresee from a policy such as this would be to give people who aren't too fond of transsexual people some ammunition to sling at them in the on going debate.

It’s the short-sightedness that’s so unbearable... trans people are going to meet people who don’t know they’re trans; women are going to meet transwomen who are, treading carefully around the banhammer, not what they are expecting...
The vast majority of people aren’t going to experience some sort of miraculous re-evaluation of their sexuality. It puts transwomen in danger from pissed off het men; transmen ditto from pissed off gay men; women ditto from pissed off transwomen; women AND transmen in (emotional) danger from each other. It’s a right royal fuck up.

There are people out there who would be happy to date transmen and transwomen. A certain well known political activist in Leeds, for example (tried to get the WPUK meeting and the Lesbian march shut down) describes himself on his twitter bio as "cis, pansexual" which I think means "will date anyone I fancy regardless of sex as recorded on birth certificate and current 'gender identity'."

So there is a dating pool out there (not necessarily one I'd want to dip so much as a toe into, but then sexual preferences are deeply personal). Just have the options there on Tinder, people can filter, job done.

After all, who wants a pity fuck from someone who doesn't actually fancy you but feels morally obliged to show solidarity?

After all, who wants a pity fuck from someone who doesn't actually fancy you but feels morally obliged to show solidarity?

Have a read about the cotton ceiling and you’ll see exactly what kind of male bodied person wants a pity, guilty, bullying, manipulative, etc kind of fuck, so long as it’s from a female.

Well, yes I do know exactly what sort of person.

I need a tongue-in-cheek emoticon for my posts. Because of course it's the obvious, reasonable solution unless the people you are dealing with are utterly unreasonable.

It's a huge double standard for transwomen to want to date biological women only, yet apparently biological lesbian women aren't allowed to also only want to date other biological women? So many double standards and contradictions.

It's absolutely not fair that lesbians have had their dating pool changed to now include biological males.

(I really dislike using the term biological woman but I don't think I can phrase things in another way without breaking the rules).

Have added this thread to my Cotton Ceiling thread:

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Because women prefer to get to know someone before getting naked with them? And are less interested in casual hookups for no-strings sex?

The ladies at Dinah Shore beg to differ, which is why I'm surprised that there don't seem to be any.

Because it would be massively dangerous to be seen entering, leaving or working at such an establishment as all the local rapists and fettishists would hang around outside waiting for a victim?

Why would they do this at a female-only sauna night any more than they would at the pool after ladies' swim or at a non-sauna lesbian meetup?

Plus it would be impossible to keep men out. All they’d have to do would be claim to be lesbians.

Yeah, you've got me there. How come this doesn't seem to work so well for transmen at gay saunas, I wonder?

At the end of the day I can't see how these new rules can be enforced. All of Tinder works on a self-ID basis. If transwomen are women as the mantra insists won't they just list themselves as women? Look at what happens with unisex loos - many transwomen still insist on using the women's - because this is validating.

I do however think that users should be able to specify who they wish to date. I think for instance that many lesbians would be willing to date transmen. The whole system is just a bit messed up at the moment. I'm constantly finding men pop up on my woman only preferences - some are just chancers but a few more, on closer inspection are transmen. I mean, men could still take advantage and pretend to be transmen to try to date lesbians but would at least give people the opportunity of being honest.

I think honestly is the best policy while dating and I vividly remember watching a Jeremy kyle show the one day about a woman who represented herself as a man to a clueless girl who thought being blindfolded or in pitch black for sex was normal it was awful I've got it in my head she was arrested but I cant remember what for

They scream there heads off if you show genital preference but you like what you like it's not transphobic

represented herself as a man to a clueless girl who thought being blindfolded or in pitch black for sex was normal it was awful I've got it in my head she was arrested but I cant remember what for

Women have gone to prison for sexual assault for this.

If Tinder forces trans profiles onto men who don't want them and trans people lie to these men then show up in person to meet-- that's dangerous for them. They're more likely to be harmed. What the hell? Or are they're not planning to meet IRL? They just want to catfish people online and remove their ability to have their accounts banned for it. Meanwhile, women like Grace Millane are murdered and Tinder gives no fucks.

Gayle Newland was into blindfolds etc.

Why would they do this at a female-only sauna night any more than they would at the pool after ladies' swim or at a non-sauna lesbian meetup?

That’s easy. Same reason women walking out of or even just adjacent to strip clubs are harassed more

Women exiting a sex establishment are dirty/slutty aka up for it / fair game. Especially a lesbian club as the women wouldn’t have men with them making them “not taken” in the mind of a predatory misogynist.

dirty/slutty aka up for it / fair game. Especially a lesbian club

Which part of "female homosexual" don't they understand? Even the most flirtatious, will chat up over woman under 30 guy I know understands that "the lesbians knock him back" and respects that. Urgh men.

This is the problem with "sex positive" libfem thinking, isn't it? The barrier to women having casual sex, running lesbian saunas or whathaveyou, is not shame or body negativity or prudishness, but male sexual entitlement.

That article with the tinder filtering complaint perfectly demonstrates the difference between men in dresses dominating and actual trans people.

All of the older hook up sites filter out trans. You have to check a box saying you're interested.

Why.

BECAUSE TRANS PEOPLE FUCKING ASKED FOR IT

So theres BLATANTLY a lot of ignoring historical trends and requests by trans people in favour of these types of predators