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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Samaritans and sex calls

279 replies

ahumanfemale · 09/11/2019 03:50

Not a TAAT but I saw elsewhere multiple mentions of the abundance of sex calls that The Samaritans receives.

I used to volunteer for a similar helpline. It was abroad and for English-speaking people. We too had regular sex callers. All - ALL - would only talk to female volunteers. I thought it was because we were a small-scale charity and it was cheaper to call us than any 0800 equivalent. It wasn't until just now that I realised our helpline wasn't unique in this. And the majority of ours were either wearing women's clothes - or fantasising about it. The underwear of underage teens was also a feature. Some clearly got off on trying to make us uncomfortable. They didn't realise we weren't uncomfortable, just bored.

And honestly, I'm fucking angry. This needs to be publicised. There are LITERALLY men out think their wank is more important than people in severe distress getting help. They LITERALLY put having a wank above someone not committing suicide. There are enough of them that The Samaritans includes their calls in its training, as our training did too.

And people - women - think these men won't go into mixed sex changing rooms and won't get thrills from making women uncomfortable and won't use their conversations to wank to either in situ or later?

The policy at my helpline changed and we were able to put the phone down on them after confirming they weren't in distress (as in they kept wanking and talking out their fantasy or whatever, rather than respond to us). This was done because someone pointed out it was abusive to expect female volunteers to be wank-fodder. I've no idea what their policy is now or what The Samaritans' policy is.

I'm disgusted that this is so common. And fwiw, we never had female sex callers.

OP posts:
Datun · 13/11/2019 00:50

*aren't they

TruthOnTrial · 13/11/2019 00:54

Well who knows. They should have been doing it for years.

Pp commented that frequent known numbers get blocked. Doesn't really seem to be having any impact though from other pp comments.

wacademia · 13/11/2019 01:36

So it's already trackable? So why are they prosecuting these sex offenders?

Because it would involve acknowledging publicly that the service is not in fact anonymous.

TimeLady · 13/11/2019 06:03

If you were a libertarian sex therapist as Chad Varah, the founder, seems to have been, I guess you might not have seen anything wrong with this kind of talk.

All disguised in a clerical cloak of respectability, of course.

TruthOnTrial · 13/11/2019 12:04

All services that claim anonymity are no longer anonymous because of the technical infrastructure now in use.

Its the same with Womens Aid, and any other service you can think of, even if you block your number.

Knowing this, as surely everyone does, whats stopping them prosecuting all the pervs blocking the helplines with their needz

managedmis · 13/11/2019 12:33

I used to work in b and q and we used to get the odd horny phone call. B and friggin Q! Hmm

TruthOnTrial · 13/11/2019 12:37

Big difference between feeling horny and commiting a crime.

Are you saying you received sexually harrassing calls at a diy store?!!!

What were you thoughts on reporting them?

Cwenthryth · 13/11/2019 13:45

Thoughts on the practicality of prosecuting these men.

How do we prove it?

The calls themselves are not recorded. Data kept is - time & duration of call, some very basic demographic data, and the volunteer’s assessment of the nature of call which is basically tick-box unless the volunteer flags it to caller support which may take more details.

Would that be enough evidence? Obviously if there is 5000 calls a month from one number all recorded as abuse/sex calls (by hundreds of different vols) then that’s fairly damning. But the occasional perv with the long detailed manipulative calls? Can that be satisfactorily proved beyond reasonable doubt (IANAL so genuinely asking, I don’t know). It’s basically volunteer’s word against the caller, can we really expect volunteers to go through the process of giving statements, attending court etc? Lots of women don’t want to do that with many types of abuse and harassment.

When rape, physical assault etc is as poorly prosecuted as it currently is, what can we realistically expect for these incidents?

TruthOnTrial · 13/11/2019 17:36

Lots of obstacles to reporting there.

Rape is one word against another.

XXcstatic · 13/11/2019 18:53

Years ago, pre-NHS Direct or NHS 111, people used to ring A&E for advice. There weren't, in fairness, that many straight-up wank calls, but the numbers of manipulative time-wasters was incredible. And the problem was that (as the callers well knew), there are so many nutters who really do do weird things to themselves that it was very difficult to tell who was genuine. Basically about 90% were mad, but some of those were both mad and genuinely injured/sick: you couldn't ring off if someone said he'd shoved a hoover pipe up his arse because sometimes it was true.

Dreichdrizzle · 13/11/2019 19:23

Really? So we're going to disbelieve women Samaritans that this has happened to, because? Why do you think a Samaritan would lie?

Sexual crimes get prosecuted all the time, when the victim is the only witness. She's still a witness though and her statement about what happened to her is evidence. Defence lawyers sometimes try to undermine witnesses but they won't necessarily succeed.

This culture of disbelief of women who are harmed by men has got to stop. It's another part of the misogynist culture, like the Samaritans, that lets men commit sex crimes with impunity and sends the message that women just have to put up with it and won't be believed. I believe every woman on this thread. Why wouldn't I?

LetsSplashMummy · 13/11/2019 19:55

I'm really shocked by this, I had no idea and feel really naive.

How hard would it be to set up a voice recognition filter, sending male callers to men volunteers and female to women? It would be so easy, the mechanism doesn't have to be announced (so people could feel/claim to be misgendered). Just a little triage where they answer something like "have you called before." Just say "aim to offer same sex support where possible, for the sake of our volunteers."

Then you get a recruitment drive going for more male volunteers. Get male mental health charities involved and make sure they know it's the wankers that have led to this crisis in support for male mental health. Horrify the decent blokes into dealing with this.

Babbas · 13/11/2019 20:51

As hard as it was to be almost forced to deal with these calls, it was even more distressing taking the suicide calls. Asking them what plans they had made, when they were going to do it, staying on the line. It was hideous and goes against humanity imo. I just couldn't reconcile my personal views with accompanying someone through talking their lives when I knew that sometimes a few kind words would keep them alive for another day or week or month. Sams really needs to be looked it. It does act like it's untouchable and there's a huge moral high ground.

TruthOnTrial · 13/11/2019 20:55

What would be involved in instigating a public investigation?

TheChampagneGalop · 13/11/2019 21:24

accompanying someone through talking their lives

What. Does this happen? I thought the Samaritans existed to prevent suicide...?

ActualFemale · 13/11/2019 21:59

Just finished reading the thread and am shocked and disgusted with these men. I do judge them, if that makes me an arsehole then I'm an arsehole.

SittHakim · 13/11/2019 22:06

Ok, I'm a current Sam volunteer, and a woman, and I note that other Sams' experience of other branches is different from mine, and possibly worse, but I can only speak from my own experience. There are lots of things that could be improved - of course there are, we're human - but without the ethos of confidentiality and lack of judgement we would simply not get calls from many of the people we most want to help. Unfortunately because confidentiality is central, I can't give specific examples, I can only make general points about some of the things being said on this thread. I had hoped to have some statistics before coming back to this thread, but can't find any recent ones.

First, setting aside sex calls, do women on this thread not have any inkling of why many female callers might urgently ask whether the call is genuinely confidential? Confidentiality is really central to our service: we also take a fair number of calls from children who are too frightened to call Childline because they know Childline isn't confidential in all circumstances. You can argue that that's wrong, but there are plenty of callers who simply wouldn't call at all if it weren't for the promise of confidentiality. Should they simply be left with no-one to talk to? For that reason, calls aren't recorded, ever. So as Cwentryth says, it would be the volunteers' word against the caller's. Does anyone have stats for successful prosecutions of obscene phone calls?

Second, why stop at sex calls? Why not shop someone to the police every time any caller indicates they might be involved in criminal behaviour? The call I would most have liked to see prosecuted if criminal prosecution were an option wasn't a sex call at all, it was a teenage girl (clearly, with her mates giggling in the background) trying to perpetrate a hoax that would really have upset any volunteer who believed her. Shall we set the police on her? I've taken calls from men and women who've done things that they know to be criminal, which often cause them distress: do I tell them the price of a listening ear is that I'll report them to the police?

Finally, anyone who thinks it's our job to repeat a script when someone is thinking of taking their own life was, frankly, a really crap volunteer (there are no scripts, for the record). The suggestion that Sams couldn't be kind is just rubbish. We are there, we make it clear to the caller that we care about them, we ask repeatedly if they want to call an ambulance or if they would like us to do it for them - the one thing we absolutely do not do is tell them not to take their own life. The agency is theirs. Self-determination (in all things up to and including suicide) is core to Samaritans. Nightline, which I've also done, is virtually identical in all respects except that volunteers are allowed to try expressly to persuade someone not to take their own life. In my experience, it's an amazingly successful approach: people very often don't go through with it if they feel they've really been heard. (And I also think that sometimes suicide is a perfectly rational choice, given the lives that some people have lived - who am I to try to talk them out of it?)

It's fine to think Samaritans is no good and you don't want to give your money to it, but you need to recognise that some of the changes suggested on this thread would undermine it to the point that its service would be really pretty useless and unable to reach the people who most need it.

TruthOnTrial · 13/11/2019 22:20

I made reference to the crucial aspect of anonymity and confidentiality, which its clear is not the case.

Numbers might not be accessible to the call handler, but they are in the system. There's no guarantee anymore from what I've seen.

The thread was about sex calls, which you've set aside in your response?

I don't see why the giggling girls scenario shouldn't be reported to the police. If it was to emergency services it would be wouldn't it. Samaritans do offer an emergency service.

I totally agree that it can be a rational choice to kill oneself because of life circumstances. Its a shame there isn't a service to pick up those in such circumstances to turn those circumstances around.

Cwenthryth · 14/11/2019 01:23

Not all circumstances can be turned around, Truth.

TruthOnTrial · 14/11/2019 01:33

Well of course Confused

Some, maybe even many, could though.

If you are dying alone of cancer, you should be supported to end your own life if you want because the pain is unbearable. That can't be turned around.

Oftentimes there is much that could be done, it just isn't. It isn't offered, or available.

Real MH effective treatment and recovery is vanishingly rare it seems,but there really should be a pickup service as an urgent referral to any that phone for help with suicidal thoughts.

Datun · 14/11/2019 01:39

I understand confidentiality is key. But it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

For the sex offending phone calls, could the number not be noted and if the caller perpetrates more than a couple of calls, then the number be sent to the police?

You could even warn them. On the call. If you continue to do this, your number will be sent to the police.

TruthOnTrial · 14/11/2019 01:48

Many many things could so easily be done, for years could have been and haven't.

I don't think someone committing a criminal act neess a couple of chances to stop, it should just be immediately reported, and then each subsequent incident also.

The same as anyone being perpetrated against. It builds a picture and pattern of behaviours.

poorchurchmouse · 14/11/2019 08:50

I’m not a Sam but have friends who are.

Aren’t several things getting mixed up here? It looks as though Samaritans are taking the rap on this thread for some much bigger problems. Clearly it’s terrible that mental health services are so bad that all that’s available for people with serious difficulties is a phone line run by volunteers who aren’t mental health professionals and can’t give advice, but that isn’t Samaritans’ fault.

It’s terrible that there are so many men out there who think it’s OK to make obscene calls to a free helpline for people in distress, but the police don’t take obscene calls seriously- why would they start now? (Or indeed other kinds of time-wasting call - people call 999 for all kinds of stupid reasons and are hardly ever prosecuted.) Some posters on this thread want Samaritans to put energy and resources into prosecuting men, and ask their female volunteers to do the same, for nothing, because we all know that male abuse of women and girls isn’t taken seriously. I don’t know if @SittHakim is right that genuine callers would be put off if it was clear that confidentiality isn’t absolute, but it sounds at least plausible.

Personally I couldn’t stay on the phone knowing someone was dying at the other end of the call and I couldn’t help them, so I don’t volunteer. But again, that’s a completely different issue from sex calls.

Datun · 14/11/2019 09:42

I don't think someone committing a criminal act neess a couple of chances to stop, it should just be immediately reported, and then each subsequent incident also.

I agree. I was thinking more of those where the caller is silent, and it could be genuine, or not. Especially when people say there is just a grunt at the end. Your feeling could be that it's an abusive call, but it, equally, might not be. You would have to see if a pattern developed that made it unequivocal.

I don’t know if @SittHakim is right that genuine callers would be put off if it was clear that confidentiality isn’t absolute, but it sounds at least plausible.

It appears that calls are all traceable anyway. So none of it is anonymous. I don't see how reporting abusive phone calls to the police would necessarily publicise that lack of anonymity.

Justhadathought · 14/11/2019 10:11

ahumanfemale I honestly think that some women are wilfully blind to this sort of thing. They have rationalised inappropriate male behaviour towards them as "part of life" (or led incredibly sheltered lives!) and simply do not want to accept how common this sort of thing is

Agree! I also imagine that many of these 'supportive' women are just imagining their colleagues at work; their own family members; or maybe that "lovely, sensitive" trans woman they know".

A unisex toilet corridor, with fully enclosed cubicles, in an office environment, or cafe, during the day, is quite a different prospect, even if still not really comfortable, to being a lone female in similar in the 'night time economy'.

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