Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

So, I got an email about a comment in which I said that I wanted to know why genderists keep comparing trans identified males to black women and lesbians being deleted. I think this is absolutely barmy, and have said so to HQ. I'm also baffled as to how this breaks any guidelines and thought perhaps it was time for us as a group to revisit the guidelines and explain once more to MNHQ why they're not working.

What's actually happening here is the the obsessive trans activists who monitor this site are attempting to pick off posters one by one. We lost Orchid last week, and she was just the most recent of many. I'm not sure in MNHQ realize that's happening and welcome it or if it's somehow escaped their notice, but it's a pretty messed up thing for them to be allowing to happen to their users, in my opinion. Are they going to allow this to continue until the only commenters left in this forum are the TRAs who want the entire site shut down?

I know the people who despise the women here would very much like this to all happen under the radar, and that's exactly why I'm not allowing it to play out that way.

And one last question: do you have any answer to how to deal with the vexatious reporting by known TRAs who publicly admit they monitor this forum and report messages that they blatantly just don’t like what is being said? I think we all know many posts are deleted here not because they break any guidelines. This thread is full of examples.

Yes. There are the women like us, Orchid, Barracker, Maryz, who have been on this site for years supporting other women & generating content for you. Then there are the TRAs whose only interest is in silencing us if they don't like what we're saying.

You must see the difference?

If you were reading a thread and finding it difficult to work out what it was all about, OrchidintheSun's posts would be the ones that would help you find which way is up.

Which is the reason that so many of her posts would end up being reported.

A great many posters have to change name on here to avoid being targeted so it makes it difficult to keep up some time so I am very grateful to the ones that manage to keep going with an identifiable name.

The people who benefit from deleting posters for innocuous expressions of sympathy, misinterpreted are certainly not those like me who pop in here to read, learn and understand.

Just dipped back into this thread.

I want to see Orchid reinstated and I'm curious to know what Ziggy posted (without anybody risking a ban).

Thank you for the response Justine, but it doesn't answer a number of the questions raised, does it? And indeed, raises further questions about "the rules"

With regard to coercive control, I agree with @BernardBlacksWineIceLolly comment

Moderators are acting as agents for people who are exercising coercive control over posters here, not exercising coercive control themselves

It appears the moderators are being used to shut down reasoned, cogent debate on here. The end result is still the same though, we are trying to stick to the rules, but we don't know what they are, and they keep on changing.

Re the mods being accused of coercive control - I compared it to the family courts, if that is what you mean? I'm fairly sure nobody explicitly said that MNHQ are abusive?! To elaborate - the judges in a family court aren't performing coercive control directly. But they are being used as a proxy for the abuse received from the (more often in that case, namalt, etc etc) bloke.

MNHQ are the family court judges here, following a seemingly sensible procedure in which the abusers behaviour looks very reasonable, fair and considered from the outside, but it is salient that their behaviour is viewed out of context - they continue to be subtly abusive towards the recipient and that abuse is reinforced by the officials of the court.

Dunno HandsOff but the fact that it was deleted within 2 minutes shows MNHQ are reading the thread

It would be great if that could translate into engagement

Ziggy posted the kind of post that would likely have been screenshot and shared on twitter. Or at least that's what the first one was.

I'm curious to know what Ziggy posted (without anybody risking a ban).

I'll give it a go!

Ziggy said that she finds the word "identify" offensive and thinks it should be prohibited. And that "pretend" was her preferred alternative. It also included a word pertaining to human sexual dimorphism, which I imagine was the problem.

Sorry MNHQ - how could I resist?! Please don't smite me! Also, pretty sure Ziggy was joking.

Thanks Lang

Has MN confirmed if joking is allowed?

I think she used the dreaded 3 letter word which was traditionally used to describe the XY half of the population

But which one must now only use with extreme caution, once one has ascertained beyond all reasonable doubt how the subject identifies

Roger that.

I don’t often post on here. I think the women are amazing. As a teacher, trade unionist, mother and grandmother, I am astonished how the moderators bend over backwards to men. It would be good if they could do training on coercive control. Who offers that?

The Freedom Programme!

I think that MNHQ response makes matters worse, and I will not be grateful for it.

I doubt there are many users of this board who do not recognise patterns in abuse.

Responding to users pointing out coercively controlling behaviours by declaring that you find the accusation hurtful, and simply denying it is happening, is trite and familiar to far too many women.

It is also worth highlighting, as pp have above, that MN bans content that even Facebook and Twitter allow.

The FWR board on MN is now among the least woman friendly places in cyber space.

My post is now framed in a ban sandwich.

Hi everyone - we're reading all replies on here - bear with us as we go through them.

Wrt strike mails - we always mail users when they get a strike - it may be the case that not all users are checking their Mumsnet emails though. If you think we’ve made a mistake and not mailed you, let us know as we can check this out.

Wrt referring to the sex of a person - when someone’s biological sex is inherent to the discussion and part of a reasoned debate, we’re unlikely to delete terms that refer to it - but it should be civil and not intended to belittle.

We don’t allow vexatious reporting and can spot it pretty quickly. Our guidelines make it clear that anyone who repeatedly reports similar types of posts that aren’t worthy of deletion will be suspended.

Wrt posters who have been suspended - we can't discuss what's happening with individual MNers, we're afraid.

Is it not possible to send at least an automated message if a post is deleted? - this is something we'll certainly consider.

Rules that can't be followed by posters that want to follow the rules need to be looked at - We will of course give consideration to this - we really don’t wish to be punitive and will look at each case individually.

Hi, Becky - I and other posters had posts deleted and accounts suspended without receiving any emails. I checked my email account back then and there were no emails from MN about it. A theory was that you must be signed up to the weekly roundups otherwise you won't get warnings either. Is that right?

Hello @TheChampagneGalop - mails from the Community team are separate from subscription mails like the weekly Talk Round Up - you don't need to be signed up to those in order to receive individual mails from us. We'll look into our previous correspondence with you now but do drop us a line at [email protected] anytime.

Thanks Becky
I have had two deletions in the last six weeks or so and I was not emailed at all.
This includes Inbox and Spam folders. Can you look into this please?

My round ups etc go to my "pre-Jeff" email address (in my name) as do my insight emails. Report ones go to my "post-Jeff" email address.
If that helps?

Thanks - just looked at my pre hands address, but the messages stopped when I changed email.

I still get MN emails when I report a post or if I receive a message from a fellow MNetter but do not get any messages about deletions, so I don't know why I was deleted or how many strikes I'm on - running the risk of a ban, without a fair opportunity to respond or receive a 'warning' that I'm at the last chance saloon.

@HandsOffMyRights - we'll look into that for you too.