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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!

691 replies

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/11/2019 17:09

So, I got an email about a comment in which I said that I wanted to know why genderists keep comparing trans identified males to black women and lesbians being deleted. I think this is absolutely barmy, and have said so to HQ. I'm also baffled as to how this breaks any guidelines and thought perhaps it was time for us as a group to revisit the guidelines and explain once more to MNHQ why they're not working.

What's actually happening here is the the obsessive trans activists who monitor this site are attempting to pick off posters one by one. We lost Orchid last week, and she was just the most recent of many. I'm not sure in MNHQ realize that's happening and welcome it or if it's somehow escaped their notice, but it's a pretty messed up thing for them to be allowing to happen to their users, in my opinion. Are they going to allow this to continue until the only commenters left in this forum are the TRAs who want the entire site shut down?

I know the people who despise the women here would very much like this to all happen under the radar, and that's exactly why I'm not allowing it to play out that way.

OP posts:
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BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/11/2019 12:49

Yep, moi aussi

And then rescinded

The whole experience left me Confused and Sad

Whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 06/11/2019 13:29

And the emails are gone. Didn't take long.
I guess proof of controlled and forced speech is against the guidelines too 🤷‍♀️

Whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 06/11/2019 13:34

Reposting without the words that might offend the men who aren't women but are determined to force us to agree Wink

Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 06/11/2019 13:36

#2

Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 06/11/2019 13:40

#3

@MNHQ

Can I ask why all of the posts were deleted when only one single picture showed the grand total of 2 "offending" words??

Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!
MrsSnippyPants · 06/11/2019 14:20

Mumsnet is pretty much the only site where I do not use my adblocker, as a very small thank you for at least making an attempt to allow women to speak.
After reading this thread I have to reconsider that decision.

Sunkisses · 06/11/2019 14:38

I posted yesterday about breast-binding being openly displayed on CBBC and normalised to children. It was deleted today and I got a nonsensical email that said they wanted the issue to be discussed, but it was the term 'self-harm' that was problematic. How can we discuss breast binding without referring to it as self-harm? It is extremely harmful, and it is women doing it to themselves - i.e. it is self-harm!

TalkingintheDark · 06/11/2019 15:37

I’m sorry to hear that about your post re breast-binding, Sunkisses.

It’s strange and tragic, isn’t it, that just as we get to this point in history where there is more awareness then ever before of the reality and harms of all the different forms of abuse, of grooming and the other ways abusers operate, and indeed of social injustice and inequality - in this age where there is a policy to address everything that anyone can think of, where safeguarding is supposedly a top priority for all public organisations, and training in it is more widespread than ever before - that just as we get to this point, along comes a movement that, it turns out, can bypass every single one of the many, many measures put in place to protect children, to redress social injustice and inequality, to raise people’s awareness of (all kinds of) abuse?

It’s almost as if those whose main objective is their own gratification, and who don’t care tuppence for those more vulnerable than themselves, will always find new ways to carry on operating the way they always have - just as criminals always adapt to new crime prevention/detection systems and find new ways to pursue their criminal activity.

As if those who have power always find new ways to hold onto their power in the face of attempts to make things more equitable; patriarchy always reinvents itself and find a new way of expressing that same old male supremacy, whatever obstacles feminism and the “march of progress“ throw in its path.

(Disclaimer: I want to be very clear here that when I talk about “abuse”, I am referring primarily to a sort of structural emotional abuse, which it is my strongly held belief that we are seeing being inflicted on women and girls, gender non-confirming children, and indeed society at large. I am NOT implying that all or most biologically male trans people/trans rights activists in are abusers in the sense of being sexual predators, or are in any other way committing criminal offences; it is the ideology itself that I believe to be (emotionally) abusive. Just in case anyone should see the word “abuse” and jump to mistaken conclusions about what I mean.)

To think that the very organisations which are out there writing or informing policy and delivering training on safeguarding, on grooming, on preventing abuse, are the ones themselves being groomed and gaslit into abandoning all those safeguarding defences when it pertains to one particular demographic - lowering the drawbridge and laying out the welcome mat, in fact, for some of those they would in all other circumstances be highly suspicious of.

It’s a tragedy.

BeyondBreakingPoint · 06/11/2019 16:39

Wtf sunkisses?! Does that rule also apply to cutting oneself?

Or even are we allowed to talk about "feminising" (for "cis" 🤢 women btw - just to be clear - nothing to do with trans!!) processes as self harm, here in FWR ffs? Beauty treatments etc - Botox, nose jobs, corsets?

BeyondBreakingPoint · 06/11/2019 16:42

All I can see when I see posters targeted by proxy is the family courts.

RuffleCrow · 06/11/2019 16:52

Increasingly i've been saying to myself "Mumsnet is the thief of joy" whenever i find myself ending up on here by default. It really makes me feel like shit if i spend too long on here. It's not just the trans issue although that's part of it. I guess my post will be deleted.

Michelleoftheresistance · 06/11/2019 16:59

be a bit too honest

It's not even someone losing their temper and being a bit too sharp now; I received my first strike this weekend for something perceived as a negative generalisation ffs.

Every ruddy post is being scanned by a self appointed censor team for anything at all it can be reported for, and it's coming up again and again that this censor team do not easily interpret irony, humour, idiom, often interpret with high literality, and will report anyone who has not phrased something perfectly in the hope of posters being deleted and banned. Posters are being stalked through the boards to dispose of specific ones. HQ, you don't allow edit buttons. We get one shot at a post. OFTEN I am seeing posters (and doing it myself) firing off a follow up post having seen somewhere in their post they failed to explain carefully enough in clear enough language with no possible misconceptions to be able to avoid deletion and banning threats. It doesn't help though because that post failed to be perfect enough.

It's getting intolerable.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 06/11/2019 17:00

Some excellent posts here.

I hope MNHQ can see this means that women here care enough about FWR and Mumsnet to fight for it instead of just going elsewhere.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 06/11/2019 17:02

I received my first strike this weekend for something perceived as a negative generalisation ffs.

Oh, that’s what I had mine for. Speculation about the motives of a certain group which was seen as negative generalising.

freethegenders · 06/11/2019 17:05

I think it is entirely pointless blaming the people who are reporting the posts whether TRA's or not.
The issue lies squarely at the feet of Mumsnet who put in place the framework, and choose to listen to the TRA's whilst ignoring the real women affected by this.

Mumsnet are pretending to care about free speech and open debate to manipulate this user base, and people are falling for it.

It's time to demand some discussions and transparency about which accounts are doing the reporting, are they members? Do they have a good-faith posting history? If not they should be ignored.
The least Mumsnet can do is give us some information to help figure a way forward. And further to that we need dialogue and polls of the user base to agree to new guidelines.

Hazardd · 06/11/2019 17:17

Sunkisses i read part of your thread yesterday. I agree there's a discussion to be had about whether CBBC's should be informing youngsters of binders but the way it was discussed was sensationalist and goady.

To say breast binding is self harm has very strong connotations of actual self harm like cutting. To say breast binding can cause accidental self harm is different because it makes it clear the intention isn't to harm but to temporarily alter one's appearance and there are consquences to that which may result in harm. Words have meaning and connotations but I understand my opinion is very old fashioned 😂

I can see why MN did delete. And I can see why my comment will be deleted because I'm talking about another thread.

LangCleg · 06/11/2019 17:35

As if those who have power always find new ways to hold onto their power in the face of attempts to make things more equitable; patriarchy always reinvents itself and find a new way of expressing that same old male supremacy, whatever obstacles feminism and the “march of progress“ throw in its path.

Preach.

LangCleg · 06/11/2019 17:42

I posted yesterday about breast-binding being openly displayed on CBBC and normalised to children. It was deleted today and I got a nonsensical email that said they wanted the issue to be discussed, but it was the term 'self-harm' that was problematic. How can we discuss breast binding without referring to it as self-harm? It is extremely harmful, and it is women doing it to themselves - i.e. it is self-harm!

The genderist interpretation of breast binding: a positive affirmation of one's gender identity/a protection against dysphoria arising from one's gender identity.

The feminist interpretation of breast binding: an iteration of female self-harm (like other iterations of female self-harm before it) brought on by a suffocating patriarchal environment leading to internalised misogyny and a rejection of a healthy body.

This is the perfect example of what is happening on this site. Mumsnet declares it wants to host both sides of the discussion but it's not true: only one side is allowed to post its analysis frankly. And it is not the feminist side.

I note on your deleted thread, Sunkisses, that MNHQ found it quite acceptable for someone who binds to refer to their binding days as "male" and their non-binding days as "slutty" - with all the rank misogyny that entails - but not for feminists to rebut this by talking about self harm.

That is the state of affairs hereabouts.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 06/11/2019 18:04

There are women like Orchid, Maryz, all the others, who spent years on Mumsnet supporting other women & helping to generate ad revenue.

Then there are people who only interact with the site to report posts they disagree with and get the above women banned.

Which group are actually more use to Mumsnet, long term? Really?

testing987654321 · 06/11/2019 18:04

To say breast binding is self harm has very strong connotations of actual self harm like cutting. To say breast binding can cause accidental self harm is different because it makes it clear the intention isn't to harm but to temporarily alter one's appearance and there are consquences to that which may result in harm. Words have meaning and connotations but I understand my opinion is very old fashioned 😂

I suppose foot binding was just designed to make feet small and pretty and it would be awfully nasty of me to describe it as harmful to women?

What about women self-harming by inserting plastic pouches in their breasts to make them look better. Completely unnecessary medical procedures.

I expect mumsnet would allow robust arguments about those topics.

But apparently we're not allowed to get angry at girls being encouraged to damage their bodies.

Mostly I think mumsnet is most concerned that women don't express anger forcefully. It's not always polite and sometimes sarcastic. What is normal elsewhere on this site isn't allowed on here because men don't like it.

testing987654321 · 06/11/2019 18:06

Obviously people insert plastic pouches in their breasts to make them look bigger not better ffs, our bodies are perfectly fine as they are.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/11/2019 18:30

Obviously people insert plastic pouches in their breasts to make them look bigger not better ffs

jeez talk about missing the point. obviously to those people bigger = better

and in fact plenty of people have boob jobs to make them sit higher on their chest, not bigger. because higher breasts look more youthful and that is perceived as a good way for women to look

Hazardd · 06/11/2019 18:32

footbinding

Is painful both short and long term and causes disabling disfigurment. Can it be described as self harm when there are outside pressures influencing the practise? I don't know.

plastic pouches

Is an interesting one and my go to for that as a feminist issue is less about the surgery and more about medical science doesn't seem to understand the long term consequences of implants so women cannot make informed decisions over the choice to have breast augmentation or not.

I would be uncomfortable and support a delete over any comments which labelled women who have plastic surgery as self harmers. Its not nuanced it's broad strokes of judgey pants that could result in the belittling of women.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/11/2019 18:34

and acquaintance of mine had a boob job. she said the pain was incredible. she had to wear a surgical corset for months. she went under a general anaesthetic for an entirely unnecessary procedure, which we all know carries a risk of death, despite having two young children

I would not do what she did, because my desire for youthful looking breasts does not outweigh my desire to avoid harm.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 06/11/2019 18:37

/derail

HQ, you don't allow edit buttons. We get one shot at a post

This is such a good point. telling someone they are no longer welcome on the site is such a serious sanction. It really shouldn't be done on a whim as was done to Orchid this weekend, but particularly when we can't edit to try to avoid misunderstandings

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