GC Doula ‘hounded out’ of Doula UK Charity

[FeminineWiles]

It is a daily fail link (complete with sad face photo) - www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7643251/Charity-hounds-birth-coach-post-saying-women-children.html

Summary - a GC doula has been kicked out of the organisation for gender critical views. She has said exactly what I feel and what I would want a doula to say if she were supporting me through pregnancy and labour. About 20 TRAs wrote to the organisation to complain about her sparking a four month suspension and before she was found to have breached their guidelines.

If you would like to contact Doula UK, the PR is Sarah Robinson and her email is [email protected]. She is listed as the main contact and I can’t find details of anyone else on the website.

lordfekko you choose your Doula, usually meeting several. I felt a bit like Simon Cowell on X factor but this is normal. Personally, I wouldn't choose someone who hadn't given birth, but some women do do it who haven't.

Are there any stats about how many transmen give birth each year?

This is horrific, I just followed the link to the Dailyfail to read the story in full, I noticed the comments section shows zero comments and thought that odd, if you press to take you to comments there are plenty of comments there supporting this woman and agreeing the world has gone mad, discussing Always / shared bathrooms in school etc etc........why would the paper bother hiding that people agree with the Doula?? I've refreshed the page and it still says 0 in comments.....maybe I'm feeling too many conspiracy theories today.

@JuniLoolaPalooza - I imagine that I’d you are given several to choose from - and if one doesn’t get chosen...

I’m imagining the some would absolutely kick up a huge stink and try to sue for ‘phobia whilst being ‘distraught’ ‘humiliated’ etc in a sad horse faced photo in the P-News.

Yes it's on the pregnant woman to contact any Doula she likes the look of and you'd contact several to see if they are available etc. I'd like to think that situation wouldn't arise. It really is such a tiny, self selecting group of people who would ever use that website.

I didn't find Doula UK that helpful for my area in reality!

This isn't about gender identity, this is about the control of women. Scary.

She posted about her biological reality, that's all. This is why ww can't speak out, Graham.

Owing to PTSD I’d be terrified of having a male midwife or male doula for my home births.

If these organisations allow men to call themselves women, how can I ensure that the person turning up at my home for me to interview (when I’m in a vulnerable position) is a woman?

And as for people losing their jobs for saying what we all believed up until 10 years ago and is still objectively true - nightmarish.

@HolyGuac there are 70+ comments.

To be fair, she must have known that what she was saying would offend trans men - some of whom may employ doulas if they have babies. If you work in the birth industry, you have to be very careful with your terminology. Presumably she was choosing to make a point by posting what she did, knowing that there was likely to be a fuss.

Yes indeed Fekko, that screenshot shows they incorrectly quoted the Equality Act 2010 by slipping in the word gender in brackets.

If Doula UK wants to quote the law they should at least get the basics right.

Sex is a protected characteristic in law
It needs saying. Again.

By calling it gender, sex is no longer a protected characteristic in its own right.

@lordproffekkothepenguinphd that's not how it works - as the woman you contact as many Doulas as you like who serve your geographical area, speak to them, shortlist a few to meet and then choose one you have a good rapport with. Doula UK just provides the listings so you can get in touch!

@HolyGuac I noticed the comment numbers too and came to mumsnet after reading them to say the same thing- very strange! I have always been very much live and let live , but in the last few years a disproportionately small number of people seem to be setting all the rules. Companies seem to be tripping over themselves to be "inclusive". It just feels really surreal and like everything is a huge parody.

I assumed it would be trans men, ie natal women who were complaining, or people who support them?

And what pisses me off is even chestfeeding is inaccurate because men have breast tissue too they get breast cancer so it doesnt matter if your born male or female or both YOU STILL HAVE BREAST TISSUE

It is a daily fail link (complete with sad face photo)

Why did you feel the need to add that? The Mail frequently covers stories affecting women which other papers ignore and in a way to generate sympathy.

The issue re zero comments is a site glitch- it's the same on other articles.

Just FYI, this story in the Mail came from Joani Walsh, though she hasn’t been credited, as is the one on Center Parcs in The Sunday Times today.

Joani is doing good work on this issue and she should be credited, as she has been in The Sunday Times
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/center-parcs-stands-firm-over-where-trans-people-get-changed-vmflsp9gz

Angry but not surprised. I'm on loads of breastfeeding groups and home birth groups. And all of their stances are men are women and they're beautiful and saying other wise makes you a nazi.

🤬 (I’m trying to be good).

I love a good poll...

It’s madness that women led organisations, providing the most female centric services it’s possible to provide, and not prepared to say “only women give birth”. Not just not prepared to say it, proud to deny reality.

How many trans men have hired a doula in the U.K? One or two at the most?

Is it trans men complaining though? The loudest voices - considering the numbers of girls attending clinics - are not then are they?

It’s an important detail. Someone with a penis wanting to change language so they can indulge in a fantasy about having a female reproductive system and lactating breasts is very different to someone born female, but for whatever reason has chosen to live as a man and wishes to be seen as one but can actually give birth but finds the language upsetting for them personally. But even then, surely the lines are so blurred you would just ask your doula to say those things rather than expect the whole organisation to change its terms.
But we need clarity on whether they want the changes for transmen or transwomen.

The same thing is happening at La Leche League, that's why I retired from leadership. You can no longer talk about breastmilk, mothering, mother... You must use inclusive language (human milk, parenting, birthing person, pregnant person..). Inclusive language to exclude women from the picture.

Wow, LordFekko, that poll really is something. It seems ridiculous that Doulas UK and other organisations are bowing to pressure from a tiny minority while ignoring the feelings of the overwhelming majority of their members and supporters.

You can no longer talk about breastmilk, mothering, mother... You must use inclusive language (human milk, parenting, birthing person, pregnant person..)

I wonder if membership numbers are going down. I simply would not tolerate being referred to in that way. If you want advice about breastfeeding but aren't allowed to call it breastfeeding...well I'd vote with my feet. It's just extraordinary how these organisations can't see how alienating they are to their core customer.

I don't know how it is across the pond, but in the states midwives and doulas are steeped in woo and very, very woke, so I am not surprised by this.

It is my impression that doula training organisations all over the world have their foundations in woo woo, misogynist woo even

According to the Doula UK website

"Doula UK was founded in April 2001, as a network of doulas, run voluntarily by doulas.
Earlier that year a group of us were very fortunate to be part of Michel Odent’s first “training” of doulas in the UK. We knew little about how doulas worked in the United States (where the movement had started) so with Michel’s words of undisturbed birth and ‘wise women’ ringing in our ears, Hilary Lewin, Mags Hardwick,Vida Rye, Nicola Wilson, and a group of passionate and motivated women sewed the seed for what has become the only UK-wide organisation for doulas. Adela Stockton’s book, ‘Gentle Birth Companions’ charts those early days of the doula movement in the UK."

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180902212733/doula.org.uk/history/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180902212733/doula.org.uk/history/

Michael Odent is heavily referenced in various Doula websites internationally, however he is an extremely controversial figure and many skeptical / science based authorities have expressed concerns about his methods

for example Odent is a promoter of the “Lotus Birth”, critical piece here
skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive/lotus_birth/

another critical piece, this one challenging Odent’s claim that painful childbirth is an important prerequisite to mother to infant bonding
<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TW94AH4GWZQJ:www.skepticalob.com/2009/07/why-lie-about-childbirth-pain-and.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TW94AH4GWZQJ:www.skepticalob.com/2009/07/why-lie-about-childbirth-pain-and.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=safari

interesting piece on Odent here
<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZJ47a6xRBlcJ:www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/07/michel-odent-how-long-can-humanity-survive-now+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZJ47a6xRBlcJ:www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/07/michel-odent-how-long-can-humanity-survive-now+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=safari

A fascinating article here on the Russian roots of the water birthing movement demonstrating Odent’s source of inspiration for his theories the controversial Russian promoter of water births and “baby yoga” Igor Charkovsky
www.nytimes.com/1995/06/08/garden/a-birth-method-stirs-a-debate.html

The youtube channel of the originator of water birthing Igor Charkovsky, the man who influenced Michel Odent can be found here

Igor Charkovsky’s followers, as well as promoting water birthing and dolphin birthing, also promote and teach his insane and dangerous method “baby yoga” that has been criticised as child abuse, an extremely disturbing example of this is the video here (although disturbing it is important for readers to see this)

Another video here is of interest
I have not yet watched this entire video however there are some woo based birthing methods covered in this video

The section on dolphin assisted births is unintentionally hilarious and should be the subject of satirical exposes (Get in there! Ricky Gervais lol). The couple promoting dolphin birth are interesting, the woman Dorina has her own woo woo website here
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20170910032334/dorina-rosin.de/en/about-dorina/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20170910032334/dorina-rosin.de/en/about-dorina/

I am not a professional in the field of obstetrics or gynaecology. I am a skeptic who is very cult aware. I appreciate that women are extremely vulnerable during pregnancy, during childbirth and as new mothers. I understand that women often want a more personal, emotionally supportive experience of birth than may be offered by hospitals and midwives alone.

My concern about doulas is related to the quackery, risky techniques and woo woo promoted by some doulas.

I am concerned about the binary divisions inherent in many pro-doula narratives in which the use of science based medicines and interventions are depicted as bad whereas dolphins, faux shamanism, homeopathy and quackery are depicted as “womanly wisdom” and good.

I am also seriously concerned about dangerous criminal cults involved in human trafficking and the sexual exploitation of children and vulnerable adults infiltrating the doula and natural birth movement via woo woo. These dangerous cults target people when they are at their most vulnerable so the fact that they are targeting pregnant women and new mothers is unsurprising and simply an unremarkable extension of their mundane modus operandi.

I am not claiming that all doulas are bad women or are in involved in cults. I am not claiming that all natural birth methods are bad or dangerous.

I am simply inviting readers to exercise extreme caution and to educate themselves about the potential dangers of cults and woo woo that have infected the doula movement for some time and have been at the foundation fo the doula movement via Michel Odent, who was himself informed by Igor Charkovsky.

Personally I believe that there needs to be a “goldilocks zone” of proper training for professionals (who IMO should be state registered) who provide a range of supportive services for pregnant women throughout pregnancy, during and following childbirth and who follow a code of ethics that forbids them from promoting the kind of woo woo and quackery that endangers the physical and mental health of mothers and their children.

Just my personal opinion and I would be happy to be challenged / corrected but I suspect that the word “doula” is too associated with woo woo, homeopathy, the Red Tent movement and cults to be considered either safe or reputable by cult informed, skeptical persons.

As I have illustrated in earlier posts here, there are significant network links between new age woo woo cults and promoters of the more extreme end of the transgender agenda so these issues arsing in relation to Doula UK are unsurprising to me.