Everything should be gender neutral

[NarcoNympho]

I don’t know how this’ll go down but I think all facilities should be gender neutral. I don’t see the point of segregating it. What’s in someone’s pants is their business and possibly their GPs too. If all facilities weren’t communal, people could still have their private spaces. My favourite bar has gender neutral toilets and they’re great (also means less queueing for women which I would greatly appreciate). I detest communal spaces anyway and feel them a great invasion of privacy. If there are ample options for example bigger toilets/changing rooms for parents and young children and disabled people it would work well. Also, if there was only one set of toilets, they would be easier to monitor and if that’s done well there’s no danger. Just my opinion though!

There have been way too many cases of men hiding cameras in loos and changing rooms recently. So it's another no from me.

I don’t know how this’ll go down

You do, though.

I'm choosing to assume that the OPs name means that they're a big fan of the TV show Narcos. I too am a big fan of Diego Luna, OP! Let's talk about that instead.

I do use the one loo (for either sex) in a small local cafe, it opens directly onto the tiny cafe, is kept very clean, and mostly used by women. Otherwise I really try and avoid them.

You can usually let your nose tell you where the men's loos are, if we're being honest.

I agree everything should be gender neutral as concepts of what manifestations of gender ought to be intrinsic to each sex are all hogwash.

There are numerous types of situation where there should be segregation by sex (not gender). eg Hospital Wards, Prisons etc. I would like to have no objection to mixed sex loos but I have seen the state your average bloke will leave a loo in when more than a bit tipsy, and been the object of various teenage boys' urges towards both both peeping-tom curiosity and misogynistic bullying if they get such a chance so I don't think we are ready for that yet. Obviously those who are oppressed on account of their sex should be able to access opportunities to organise and meet in single-sex organisations - with no objection to there also being single-gender organisations too so long as there is clarity on whether an organisation is single-gender or single-sex and no favouritism from the powers that be between such organisations. Oppressed groups of any variety should have the right to self-organise in such ways.

There's a lot of shot grenades being thrown at the moment.

"INCOMING" splat! Then silence.

Shit grenades FFS.

I'm triggered by the assumption I wear pants.

How silly. What a naive little girl.
If you can get away with that little thought and imagination, op, I can get away with being patronising.
It doesn’t do any of us any favours.

In the spirit of assuming you might pop back (well, you never know), can you tell me how I should assign shared bedrooms to students? Should my ex neighbour have to share a shelter bedroom with a man after leaving her violent arsehole of a husband? What about prisons? Mixed sex all good with you? Bung the convicted rapists in with the wims? They are all cons anyway, right?

Is there a reason that you are so keen to throw away the sex segregated protections that women fought so bloody hard for?

Our gender neutral toilets at work are rank. They were never left full of splattered piss and shit when they used to be ladies. Apparently men don’t understand the concepts of flushing and leaving the cubicle ready for the next person.

Why were facilities sex segregated in the first place? Toilets, changing rooms, refuges, prisons etc.

Why is this segregation is no longer necessary?

I dont understand why we can't keep the facilities according to gender then introduce gender neutral as a third option for those who feel comfortable.

Women have worked hard to be heard about abuse and triggers. It is unfair that in a space you are somewhat vulnerable you have to share that with members of the opposite sex.

My local gym had male and female changing rooms and showers which became gender neutral in the last month of my pregnancy. I was attending a water aerobics class with other pregnant mums and we all felt alienated and unsafe trying to use the space so we all quit and went to other gyms.

We must be careful in this hunt to be progressive and inclusive we don't alienate and disenfranchise 51% of the population who already are second class citizens as far as I'm concerned

I think a return to the 1850s would be a mistake.

You're not new here, so have you read any of the countless comments where other Mumsnetters have patiently explained why mixed-sex facilities are harmful for women? They come complete with reports of crimes committed, data on risk and prevalence and of course individual experiences of the many things going wrong with this setup.

Did you read them and think I don't care about other women? Or did you not bother at all?

This has all been discussed ad nauseam.
Can you provide any evidence at all of mixed-sex facilities being safer, more private and more dignified and in the case of toilets more hygienic than our female-only ones? Or evidence that all women are comfortable with such a change? If not, why would you seek to make things worse for everyone else?

OK... So we all have to conform when a male identifies as female and insists on using female spaces. Where can females go when they don't want to share their spaces with males? Do females have a choice? If not, why not?

I was attending a water aerobics class with other pregnant mums and we all felt alienated and unsafe trying to use the space so we all quit and went to other gyms.

That's what we have to do. Boycott. Whether it's M&S or a leisure centre: boycott.

I also attend an aqua fit class which is 99.9% women, mostly older ones, at a leisure centre in a hotel; you have to be a member. Single sex communal changing rooms. As it should be.

I was at a nice restaurant with my kids the other day. My son went to the men's loo and said the floor was covered in urine. He confirmed that most men's loos have urine all over the place. He himself is fastidious and sits to pee, having had a German childminder when he was small (boys being taught to sit is fairly common in Germany).
He also said that people carry this urine all over the carpeted restaurant floor and that we need to be stricter with our rather lax "leave shoes outside the flat" rule.

You coming back, OP, or is it another one of those?

To be fair, OP does sometimes come back. To call people cunts for recognising that human beings who menstruate are female.

As has been pointed out multiple times before, we live in a patriarchal society. This means that male needs are both consciously and unconsciously seen as the default.
Unless you actively make sure you are catering for women, 'gender neutral' means one size fits men.

As for this:
What’s in someone’s pants is their business and possibly their GPs too
And if men left it in their pants, no one would care but according to Rape Crisis, there are 11 serious sexual offences committed every hour in the UK. You can quit with this gaslighting nonsense. Women being wary of male people is entirely reasonable.

No thanks, I want female-only space at times of vulnerability - loos, hospitals, changing wards, refuges.

You do you though. I've got no problem with third spaces. Knock yourself out agitating for them in addition to single sex services.

No thanks. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/female-prisoner-takes-government-to-court-after-alleged-assault-by-transgender-inmate-n5wtg2nf7 (Not full version as you need to register)

Ahh but then people decide that the dr doesnt have the right to know that they are packing a pecker in their pants then when they have a heart attack and its missed because they aren't presenting with the right symptoms according to there gender they then die and well what do you do then?

The correct way to urinate in a gender neutral toilet is as follows first clean the toilet next roll your trouser legs up then your trousers down so they meet around your knees they you can sit and pee

I was at an event earlier this week, which was hosted in the offices of a large blue chip firm. The toilets were labelled as 'gender neutral'.

The split of participants was 50/50 male/female. During the break when people wanted to use the loos, there was a really interesting occurrence. When noticing that the loos were 'neutral' the male attendees went in quite happily, but without exception every single woman hung back - to the point that there was a group of us waiting in the corridor. Nobody said anything - they just waited.

After the last of the men had finished, the women went in as a group, stayed until everyone was ready, and came back as a group. There were quiet comments about not feeling safe, and also that the seats and floors were covered in urine. One woman said that she did not agree with 'neutral' loos and everyone in the group agreed with her. Another woman said "you have to be careful saying that these days".

It was a really stark reminder of how all of us knew, instinctively, that some didn't feel safe and all felt uncomfortable, and so we formed a group to look out for each other's safety without saying a word. Whereas the men strolled in without even thinking.

That's why toilets are and should continue to be, sex segregated. Who is it that said that men worry that women will laugh at them and women worry that men will kill them?

I don’t see the point of segregating it.

Ah I see.

You don't see the point, therefore no one else does or if they do, it's unimportant, irrelevant or invalid.

Cos your opinion is king and we therefore should all agree with you.

Gotcha.

Because statistically more sex attacks happen in unisex cubicles than segregated. That includes voyeuristic photos, to physical sex attack, to rape (please refer to the Target statistics based over the last decade when they changed their changing rooms from segregated to "gender neutral".

More sex attacks in general happen in family chmging rooms ie unisex in places like leisure centre's www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html%3famp

"Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas"

“These figures show that women and girls are more vulnerable in mixed changing rooms and there is a danger these places are becoming a magnet for sexual offenders,” says David Davies, MP for Monmouth.

“It simply doesn’t make sense to enable men to have greater access to women’s spaces. The reforms to gender recognition will grant that access.”

^^SEE THE ABOVE.

This is the OP who’s posted before about being non-binary and wanting to rip her breasts off on some mornings. I get the impression she’s very young.