Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

Im still stuck wondering why bullying women is seen as validation?

Bullying anyone to get what you want at the expense of other people's safety and comfort just makes you a shitty person.

Grow up ,Bronners

Nobody has attacked you they have answered your question and said they disagree with you.

You come on here to tell a group of women that you are Male but go in to female spaces regardless of our rights our boundaries our privacy and dignity. All because you WANT to.

What did you expect a round of applause

Bronners you didn't answer any of my questions except one so I'll assume you are unable to.
Your position seems very much to be that unless we can ensure no rules are ever broken by anyone ever, then there is no need for rules or laws. To me this approach is so fundamentally wrong that I don't see any common ground or point in discussing legislation, as you think it shouldn't exist at all.

It is precisely "arguments" such as yours that made me reconsider my former blind support of trans rights at all costs.

Your position seems very much to be that unless we can ensure no rules are ever broken by anyone ever, then there is no need for rules or laws. To me this approach is so fundamentally wrong that I don't see any common ground or point in discussing legislation, as you think it shouldn't exist at all.

But this is EXACTLY Ruth Hunt's argument. "Men are always going to rape women" so our safety isn't worth bothering about. I've said this before but it bears repeating because it sums up Stonewall's views perfectly.

Not giving a fuck about women is central to gender ideology. If it wasn't, they'd have to listen to us.

But this is EXACTLY Ruth Hunt's argument. "Men are always going to rape women" so our safety isn't worth bothering about. I've said this before but it bears repeating because it sums up Stonewall's views perfectly.

This demonstrates a failure to understand and/ respect Safeguarding.

• should say understand and/or respect Safeguarding. Apologies

Empress - I kept reading this about Ruth Hunt - just looked it up now-

The question over whether gender self-identification “will lead to men raping women” is, she says, the wrong one. “Men are always going to rape women. The question should be: ‘Will the increase in gender fluidity increase the risk of men masquerading as women?’

Masquerading is what’s important here - let’s completely ignore rape.

Fucking hell- and the government gives Stonewall public money.

Stonewall needs to be banned

Safeguarding recognises that risk can never be completely eradicated, however it can & should be minimised whenever possible. Safeguarding & Child Protection frameworks are in place which have evolved to close 'loopholes' when recognised.
To state 'men will always rape women' & presumably by implication 'predatory paedophiles will always abuse children' so what were effective Safeguards should be removed is an extra-ordinary & indefensible position to assume.

What I don't get, and I'd like someone to explain to me is:

We women (by that I mean adult human females) are not allowed to say that Transwomen are not women because it hurts the feelings of said Transwomen...

Yet us women (and again I mean adult human females) are expected to completely ignore the feelings of fear, humiliation and anxiety that come with being presented with a fully functioning Male body in what we considered to be a safe space?

We are also expected to ignore our own hurt feelings that we are having our very identities taken away from us...

This does not compute. Honestly. We are not allowed to hurt the feelings of Transwomen yet they are allowed to trample all over ours with no consideration...

Also, whilst I'm on one... how in the actual heck is "self identification" any different to racial appropriation? People kick up a massive stink of a White person wears dreadlocks, because dreadlocks are a cultural thing of an oppressed people and the white person is using it for dress up... rightly so. Yet when a man puts on a dress and calls himself Sally he is applauded as being "stunning and brave"... JUST WHAT?!? Women have been oppressed for fucking years!!

Also, can I identify out of having periods? Please explain how...

ALSO also... how is it in any way right that we have to hand over the descriptor "women" and "woman" to people who HAVE PENISES and accept a brand spanking new word "cis" that was MADE UP BY THSIE SAME PENIS PEOPLE and just accept that that's what we are now?!?

NO NO NO NO.

If you swapped the word woman for hedgehog, what would the answer be?

It is precisely "arguments" such as yours that made me reconsider my former blind support of trans rights at all costs.

This.

Mumsnet doesn't radicalise women. The TRA statements do that all by themselves.

@Bananabixfloof most transitioning young people now are vulnerable girls, with autism, a history of trauma, anorexia... they will desperately need third spaces, because they won't be safe in the mens, and won't feel comfortable in the women's. And think of the detransitioners, and the transwomen who are trying to support and help us, understanding very well why we have good reason to fear males in our spaces. All of them deserve our support. And honestly, all human beings deserve a dignified and safe life. You don't have to like a group to believe that. I appreciate that the horrifying way women are being treated as less than human is hard to swallow, but I don't think the solution is to dehumanise right back.

The solution would be to find common ground, somewhere in the middle, that the EA tries very hard to achieve and for the most part succeeds

The Equality Act does provide for single sex services - Vicky could legally be excluded from the women's changing room, but organisations ignore this because they've been Stonewalled and don't seem to understand the law.

I think it’s more ‘is or pretends to be’, on reflection- we get asked frequently if we ‘identify as disabled’ but for anything important (ie involving cash or extra time or allowances) you do tend to have to prove it.

The admission that there is no practical way to police all spaces on the basis of biological sex totally undermines your arguments.

There's no practical way to police that every person travelling in a car should wear a seat belt.
This is a Safeguard which has reduced deaths & serious injuries in the event of a collision.
The overwhelming majority of people do now wear seat belts. I remember when this was not the case.

There was legislation as Wiki describes:
"Successive UK governments proposed, but failed to deliver, seat belt legislation throughout the 1970s. Front seat belts were compulsory equipment on all new cars registered in the UK from 1972, although it did not become compulsory for them to be worn until 1983. Rear seat belts were compulsory equipment from 1986 and became compulsory for them to be worn in 1991"

The shift in people's behaviour alongside legislation was due to campaigns, changing atitudes and habits alongside awareness of the consequence of disregarding a Safeguard to reduce risk of harm.

Vicky could legally be excluded from the women's changing room, but organisations ignore this because they've been Stonewalled and don't seem to understand the law.

Organisations are disregarding Safeguards & the Duty of Care they have to girls & women.
There are more legislative requirements & responsibilities than the Equality Act & GRA

Here is another 88% stat for you Bronners and a useful resource with a catalogue of links from a mix of news sources, many of them local UK news:

"Transgender Law and Policy Institute estimates the Transgender population at 2 – 5% of the US population. National Center for Transgender Equality reports that only 0.25 – 1.0 % of the US population are Transsexual, persons suffering from a complete psychosexual inversion whose body identity disorder/ body dysmorphia disorder takes the form of an obsession with having the primary and secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex.... 88% of the Transgender population are here: The Transvestites, Crossdressers and Autogynephiliacs. THIS is Transgender – substantially ALL of the transgender population, as reported by their own advocacy organizations, are males with a psychosexual disorder."

outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/?fbclid=IwAR0jt1FPtwP5B7cKUJ6O1NcAgFdV5Wauo8P1ZtQ8D-GG0YkXTXHxlv2-ZT8

@ANuggetOfTheFinestGreen

What I don't get, and I'd like someone to explain to me is:

We women (by that I mean adult human females) are not allowed to say that Transwomen are not women because it hurts the feelings of said Transwomen...

Yet us women (and again I mean adult human females) are expected to completely ignore the feelings of fear, humiliation and anxiety that come with being presented with a fully functioning Male body in what we considered to be a safe space?

We are also expected to ignore our own hurt feelings that we are having our very identities taken away from us...

This does not compute. Honestly. We are not allowed to hurt the feelings of Transwomen yet they are allowed to trample all over ours with no consideration...

I'd love to have that explained, too. This is why I always eyeroll when men start pontificating that "transwomen are women!" Because if they actually believed that for one fucking second, they wouldn't give a shit about them either.

Transwomen are vulnerable to MALES, and women are vulnerable to MALES. If there's a hierarchy of invulnerability, then men are at the top, transwomen are in the middle, and women and then transmen are right down at the bottom. If transwomen aren't safe in men's spaces, and don't feel comfortable with men alongside them, then they might try understanding that women aren't safe with males in their spaces, and don't feel comfortable with males alongside them. Where is the empathy and compassion they keep demanding of us? Why is their fear and discomfort real and sympathetic, and ours hysterical and bigoted? Misogyny, that's why.

Where I'm at is basically a hard NO.

My tall blonde 13yo daughter can't go to buy a bag of crisps in our local Metro without being catcalled & abused.

The safety precautions she takes are a) wearing shapeless baggy hoodies & jeans to disguise her shape &

b) not going to the local shop unless her 6'2 15yo brother accompanies her & tells passing sleazes to FUCK OFF because she's too scared to tell them.

Her 11yo sister is oblivious to all this, & I find myself having 'no, you must put jeans on if you're going to the shop, shorts aren't a good idea' conversations with her. Which pisses me off enormously, when she's wearing shorts to run around in & then fancies nipping to the local shop for an ice cream, because why the HELL shouldn't she get to do that without being leched at?!

We're overseas & things are ostensibly more conservative - which doesn't stop random men checking out both of my young female children. Constantly.

So NO I am not ok with men in female spaces. If my daughters can't bloody spend their pocket money without being leered at, threatened & abused on the way - I'm going to damn well defend their right to change into their PE kit or go for a wee or a swim without it.

NO. I do not consent to male bodied people where my underage daughters are unclothed.

& when they are adults, I'm pretty sure they'll still find it fucking objectionable, & I'm holding the line for their right to damn well say so.

It’s a NO from me too.

It’s a no from me

they will desperately need third spaces
But they dont even want third spaces, that's not right or not affirming or some shit. If they are not asking for a third space why is anyone else?
but I don't think the solution is to dehumanise right back
Its possibly dehumanizing if I say I wont campaign with them, in a stretch, but just as i cant compel them to be considerate of women, they cant compel me to campaign.
I'm not convinced they need me, they get whatever they want. If they wanted third spaces people would jump through any and all hoops to get that sorted as soon as humanly possible.

Now as I said if this continues for much longer it wont be only me fighting against them getting anything, let alone third spaces. Theres a lot of women out there upset/damaged even by this current behaviour. Forgiveness doesn't come easily to us all.