Long time ago but my DH

[Gizmo79]

Had sex with a prostitute in the red light district of Amsterdam.
This was way before we met.
I still struggle with the idea though. He was young and single so didn’t cheat in anyone, but...he paid to fuck some poor woman who had to pay her bills. Just so he could get his jollies.
When he told me initially I kicked him out, but then forgave. But I can’t forget. Every time he comes near me I feel that he is nasty, dirty, an arrogant man who thinks that’s okay,
Probably the wrong area to post in, but I don’t know who else will understand. If it wasn’t for our children then I would be long gone. I had one DS with him when we were in happy mode prior to finding this out, and then an accident DS when I was drunk. (And yes I should have probably had an abortion in hindsight although I love him to bits so no)!
We sleep together maybe once a year at the best as I strongly suspect he is shagging other prostitutes despite his denial, plus I can only bear to do it when I am paralytic.
When I am sober- the thought of what he did makes me retch inside.
I do not know what to do. Yes, I’m nasty for not having sex with my husband, but do other women find this okay?

Op, you shouldn't be drinking so much either. Please end your marriage it's making you ill.
You can be happy alone with the children. You can make a new life that's so much better than the one you're in now.

Excuse me but I was just trying to express another side of it through other women I know that know the industry much better than a lot of you.
Yes there is a horrible seedy dark and dangerous side to the industry. Yes women are raped by protistion. I was never excusing this and you have twisted my words completely.
But its not always like that.
Someone mentioning that this is a feminist board you can fuck off frankly - allowing women a choice to do what they want with their body is feminism and for the few who choose that life there should be nothing wrong it.

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

This was the point I was trying to make about legalising it. That it can help make it safer for people etc.

Sex industry apologist!!??? Really? Because I think someone who has used a prostitute once isn't an abuser /rapist?? Jog on

You are exactly that. He was an abuser and a rapist in Amsterdam and his views don't seem to have changed.

Can you show proper robust evidence from countries where it is legalised that it does indeed make it safer please? I keep hearing the Nordic model derided but I believe that it is more desirable to eg Germany where it is legal but there are huge problems. Nobody here wants to punish the women who have to do it by why do you want to enable the punters and pimps?

Feminism is not about “let all women do what they want”. Well, not radical feminism anyway. The whole sex industry (funny how women aren’t the ones buying sex, right?) is harmful to women and society as a whole. There is also an enormous difference between being a dancer and being a prostitute. I believe lap dancing is legal so those people working in that part of the industry don’t need to weigh in on why their empowerment as dancers means that heroin addicts forced to sell sex on the street are similarly empowered. It’s not the same. If you look at Holbeck in Leeds, you might get an idea of what decriminalisation looks like.

And talks of getting women to unionise etc. Do you honestly think that will work? That their ‘employers’ will listen? I mean a woman can work now without a pimp but so many of them have them because the pimps coerce them into it and threaten them with violence. Do you think they will magically stop if the woman claims to be in a union. Many of the men who use prostitutes are violent shitbags who get off on brutalising women. The clientele won’t change if you’re in a union and it’s all legal. It just means fewer consequences for them.

Some women in violent abusive relationships swear blind that they’re happy and that their partners are wonderful. Doesn’t mean I take them at their word and campaign to legalise DV. I’d rather listen to the many many survivors of the sex industry whose accounts contradict the happy picture painted by libfems and can see the woods for the trees once they are out of there. However, these women tend to just be ignored or even mocked and vilified.

I remember when the Ipswich serial murders were in the news. Almost every single woman working in the ted light district was there because she was a drug addict and needed to feed her habit. There was a fucking serial killer prowling the streets and they still felt compelled to go out there. On what level is that empowerment? Because I can tell you that if my employer said that I have a high chance of getting murdered if I come into work, I sure as hell am not going to go in.

And don’t tell me that it would have been safer if they had worked in a brothel. Women like that wouldn’t get to work in the brothels- they would be out of there even under the proposed happy legalised model. So they would be on the streets anyway but the police would give even less of a shit because it would be perfectly legal.

Sex industry apologist!!???

Yes.

And pathetic use of punctuation only makes it worse.

How did somebody like you even find this board?

Not saying that it's ok but it is legal in Amsterdam and there is a lot of help a available for those who need it for mental health or drug addiction. Also, the more "iffy" (addicted, MH problems or abused) the prostitute is, the less likely that she will end up in the busy red light district where police and organisations are keeping an eye on them. There is an organisation who will talk to the women (and men) and get them out if they have been trafficked. So I don't think that you can compare it with prostitution in the UK where there is a higher chance of mental health problems or trafficking.
Disclaimer: I am Dutch and did a study piece on it at uni BUT that was 20 years ago so things could have changed.

I'd be more concerned about the fact that he still goes out with friends that go "whoring" (I dislike that term).

There are plenty of women who wouldn’t care that their husband once slept with a sex worker. As pp said you won’t find them on this forum.

But it sounds like more than that. I’m reading that you don’t like him, you don’t trust him, you aren’t attracted to him and you don’t love him. The reasons are now almost subsidiary. (He doesn’t sound like a nice person to me but that’s not my business).

What would you say to a friend in this situation?

I have known and know people in the sex industry that actually love what they do. They choose it because it earns them good money and they have no problem expressing their sexuality.
The issue of sex trafficking is completely different and yes absolutely abhorrent, the best way to tackle this is to legalise sex work

You can't conveniently seperate those with free choice who find sex work empowering from the trafficked abused girls. The Dutch haven't managed it.

allowing women a choice to do what they want with their body is feminism and for the few who choose that life there should be nothing wrong it.

The point is that the are few who truly choose that life, and there's no room in feminism for trafficking women.

Men choose what to do with a woman’s body in prostitution. That’s what the money is paying for.

Karabir exactly. Legalising it won’t change that or put women in control. It’s part of what the men get off on. Many of them have wives or girlfriends who give them regular sex. They could go on tinder and have a one night stand if they wanted to. Paying for it means that they are in the driving seat and it’s actually quite sad that the libfems defending this think that the power balance could shift with legalisation.

Excuse me but I was just trying to express another side of it through other women I know that know the industry much better than a lot of you.

Not better than me, I'd lay money on it.

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
You can't bear to be with your husband because of what he's done, so you need to make plans to leave.

Hope you're OK OP. There is a lot of support on Mumsnet for you.

OP, you say that you are unattractive and reference your insecurities about him wanting to sleep with more attractive women. Accurate or not, it is a terrible feeling and puts you in a terrible mindset. You deserve better and should endeavor to treat yourself better.

I want to help you get to the root of your feelings because you're obviously very unhappy. I think the focus on your husband in this thread is misguided - you need to be centered here. Regardless of what he is or isn't you aren't compatible anymore so I think you focusing on you is your best course of action.

We are all responsible for the outcome of our choices you chose to marry him and it didn't work out. It was a choice you made... no one makes great choices all of the time and no one ever has every shred of info prior to making all choices. You didn't know that he engaged in something you find detestable prior to marrying him, now you do and it created a vast divide between who you believed he was and who he is. And that my dear is really fucking shitty. It sounds like it killed your marriage and understandably so - I'm sorry for your loss. But much like the death of a spouse the death of your marriage shouldn't be the demise of you.

Now it is time to make new choices, choices that put you at the center of your universe and holds your children close. You deserve to be happy and to obtain that happiness you will have to make some very hard choices.

You want to model behavior for them but also they can feel it if you're not happy and they can see it no matter what you think - seeing you sad will make them sad.

Have you had a convo with your husband to discuss the climate of your marriage? If not can you approach it in a way that he will engage without fury? I know it is very scary but if you don't fear violence from him having an open conversation may be the first step in opening your path to freedom. Sometimes what we think we know and reality are much different. Maybe he feels similarly (i.e. marriage is dead) and would be open to dismantling the relationship for his own happiness? You won't know unless you ask (if you have gone through all this my apologies but I try to not assume anything).

I recommend you begin seeing a therapist to deal with your insecurities and to help you find a way to love yourself. We all need an objective sounding board sometimes so please don't take the suggestion as a dig/judgement. You can find a therapist online they can do web chats since your schedule sounds quite tight.

Please seek therapy and begin to create your new path without your husband, you can do it - don't tell yourself you can't. Your children believe in you, we in FWR believe in you, now you have to believe in you.

While a slight derail, I need to voice the following:

I realize the prevailing narrative is that paying for sex equals rape, I think a different term should be used. Women that have been raped may find the use of the word in relation to Nordic model prostitution to be offensive. What occurs in (likely most) punter/prostitute interactions is not consensual i.e. paid consent isn't consent but I don't think rape is the right word to describe it. Sex trafficked girls/women are raped repeatedly - not the same as choosing to sell one's body in a regulated red light district or similar.

I'm not being pedantic I'm being pragmatic we can't dilute rape this way as it shifts the narrative from those that actually experience rape to those that promote porn and prostitution as empowerment. It takes the power from the word rape and entangles it with subjugating agendas. It dilutes rape to something that's palatable for many in society (porn, Nordic model). Rape experiences for prostitutes or trafficking or general woman in society is not equal to or synonymous with the few that choose prostitution/escorting/porn (regardless of their reasons - that is a different matter).

Interesting you see that talking about the suffering of women in prostitution is a "dilution" of other women's suffering. Andrea Dworkin described prostitution as one long gang rape, with pauses in between the rapes. She knew, she'd experienced it.

Prostitution is about men's choices, not women's. "Regulated" red light districts are full of violence, rape and trafficking of women and girls.

Prostitution is rape that men have institutionalised by turning it into a transaction. Money supposedly cleanses the violence and abuse. It doesn't.

Totally agree with everything you have said @karabair

It dilutes rape to something that's palatable for many in society

I think you need to have a bit of think about why the sex industry is "palatable in society" and how that connects to abysmally low conviction rates for rape and its prevalence.

Karabair

Interesting you see that talking about the suffering of women in prostitution is a "dilution" of other women's suffering.

Yeah I didn't say that at all. What I did say is that rape is different from prostitution, not that prostitutes aren't raped.

Your posturing is tone-deaf.

Just because Dworkin says it doesn't make it true. I agree with a lot of what she says but I disagree with some of what she says. I'm sure her experience of prostitution is an accurate portrayal from her perspective - she lived it. Saying that prostitution is one long gang rape, with pauses in between the rapes is a stretch though as gang rape survivors can attest. Just because something feels like something doesn't mean it is something.

The fact remains that there are women who choose to sell their bodies and as I said - regardless of the reasons - it can't be equated with rape. If they were raped they were raped but being raped isn't inherent to prostitution. Yes women are raped in those situations yes women are sex trafficked and that is rape but prostitution is not rape in and of itself. Yes prostitution is exploitive and whether the women who make a choice to participate or not they are being abused and exploited but they aren't necessarily being raped. Exploitation is not rape, physical abuse is not rape, emotional distress is not rape.

Conjecture or assumptions aren't facts the reality of the situation is that if you haven't experienced something you don't know how it actually feels or what it really does to you as a person.

Of course prostitution is about men but that doesn't mean that women who have been blinded by patriarchy won't willingly participate or exploit other women.

Prostitution and rape are separate subjects they aren't one in the same. I'm merely appealing to my fellow women to not conflate the two as it does diminish the experiences of actual rape survivors. Women in general are raped regardless of their profession, prostitutes are raped more often than the general population but not all prostitutes are raped just as not all women are raped.

posturing

I don't even know how to respond to that. I don't think I'll try.

I think you need to have a bit of think about why the sex industry is "palatable in society" and how that connects to abysmally low conviction rates for rape and its prevalence.

Two of the terms rapists use for women they rape are slt and whre. Coincidentally the sames abusive terms they use to name the women men use in prostitution.