"the most vulnerable people in our society"

[Karabair]

Saw this on phrase on Twitter by someone telling women not to notice that TRAs had nailed a dead rat to a rape crisis centre.

For a lot of women the so-called vulnerability of MTF trans seems to be their justification for completely ignoring women's needs, interests and of course, oppression. Apparently women and girls aren't vulnerable, whilst MTF trans are. Two of us die at the hands of men every week, countless women and girls are raped and sexually abused by men more powerful than us - we are, sadly, vulnerable, it's a fact of life at the moment, but it doesn't count.

Why are MTF trans seen as more vulnerable than oppressed people, especially women? Where does that thinking come from?

Well, saying it (over and over again) doesn't make it true.

I doubt that people in the real world believe that putting on a frock makes it so.

I think a lot of it comes from the US, but the whole 'check your privilege' movement have latched onto it.

It's also a lib fem thing.

Was just reading that same thread! Yes, it’s one of those sayings that has now gained such force that it’s accepted as universal truth. I also think it’s so interesting how it’s transwomen and not transmen who are seen as the most vulnerable, despite the former having grown up male and with the privileges that confers.
Basically it’s a myth, although I accept that many trans people are vulnerable due to MH conditions they often have in addition to gender dysphoria. But there isn’t any evidence of a higher murder rate or higher rate of assaults.

I think people with mental health problems who dont find it easy to fit social norms are indeed very vulnerable. I dont have a problem with saying that. It doesn't mean they are automatically physically weak though. More that they are vulnerable to exploitation or to finding themselves in situations they didn't predict.

I think disabled people generally, especially people with learning disabilities, are the most vulnerable of all.

Women are vulnerable due to physical weakness. I'm a big strong lass but any male aged under about 80 could knock me out if they wanted to.

I struggle to see Jane Fae or Rachel MacKinnon as vulnerable for example.

I feel there's a lot of projection going on.

Why are MTF trans seen as more vulnerable than oppressed people, especially women? Where does that thinking come from?

Because men are saying it. Simples.

It’s designed to appeal to women’s socialisation to be kind, to be nice. To not make a fuss as our boundaries are shat upon.

‘Trans’ children are incredibly vulnerable - they are prey to all sorts.

Anyone using 'vulnerability' as a teflon coating is telling us all we need to know about them. - That's not how vulnerability works.

Because men are saying it. Simples.

Hahahaha, yes. It's weird to see female socialisation in action, when being obedient to men means denying the reality that is all around us.

Women are so vulnerable to male violence, we literally have almost no protection apart from not being in the same vicinity as a violent predatory man. Yet that real vulnerablity counts for nothing with the woke.

Agree re trans children, who are indeed very vulnerable.

Vulnerable people:

People with physical disabilities
People with learning disabilities
People with serious end mental health problems (schizophrenia, bi polar disease etc)
People living in abject poverty
People who are homosexual in countries where homosexuality is illegal
Women in countries where women are legally treated as lesser than men
Refugees
People with terminal illnesses
People with dementia

I can think of lots of vulnerable people, I work with them day in, day out. Middle and upper class westerners who wish they weren't the sex they are and have thousands of pounds to waste on cosmetic surgery like McKinnon, Whittle or JF don't even feature. The average trans privilege activist is one of the most pampered people who has ever walked the earth, the precise opposite of 'vulnerable'.

And the missing millions of girls in India and China, a genocide, also counts for zero with the woke. For some reason those girls weren't vulnerable, they just never got to exist.

Indeed Karabair, my list is not by any means exhaustive, there is an endless list of people who are genuinely vulnerable. Trans privilege activists give not one shiny shit about any of them, including the gender confused youngsters they are grooming.

Agree re trans children, who are indeed very vulnerable.
In this day and age I’d say all children are vulnerable: the state sanctified exposure to trans ideology is unhealthy for all children, eradicating boundaries and making a mockery of safe guarding.

Yeah but the ones who are being told that they are trapped in the wrong body are far far more vulnerable compared to other children. They are often the ones with other vulnerabilities too, including autism, and the risk to them is massive and the consequences largely unknown.

I think in a way the answer is indirect. It is because somewhere along the line many people have decided that being most vulnerable wins you some sort of argument.

It's even implicit in responses you see, where people will say, no - these people are not the most vulnerable, it is really women/children/the disabled etc.

All of whom are people that can be vulnerable in one way or another. But it doesn't mean that they get to tell us what is true, or set the political agenda, or silence other voices, or have some sort of moral superiority.

Didn't finish my thought - which is that people - in this issue but also others - make the claim because it gives them power in the discourse.

Yes but there are concrete material manifestations of vulnerability, that can't be ignored yet are. Claims to vulnerability aren't merely a rhetorical device. In many cases they are true and they need to be paid attention to.

In the case of strapping six foot five inch white MTF trans, it's less easy to see the vulnerabillity - "It's Ma'am".

I guess they're vulnerable to being disagreed with over their self-assessment.

The point is that instead of helping those with vulnerabilities, the TRAs use them for point-scoring and to validate their arguments.

A middle aged man who transitions is unlikely to be particularly vulnerable but obviously a confused 7 year old who is told that he is really a girl and set up to take blockers is. There are also trans identifying individuals who live very chaotic lives due to MH issues and we have all seen how women who have suffered abuse as children may be pushed down the trans path. However, the loudest voices are not those of the vulnerable- quite the opposite. The other false bit of the narrative is that the vulnerability arises solely due to discrimination when that is very far from the truth. It is because a person is already vulnerable in some way that trans often seems to be an attractive option.

Also, vulnerability is not just about lack of physical strength. You can be 6 ft 5 and vulnerable if you have severe mental health issues. I think the de-medicalisation of gender dysphoria was a big mistake. There will be vulnerable people who don’t get support as a result.

You'd be a lot safer as a six foot five mentally ill person than a five foot two mentally ill person. There's also only one sex who is likely to be six foot five. Why is it male vulnerability is always highlighted whilst female vulnerability (which is real) gets dismissed?

The belief in MTF trans vulnerability is now manifesting itself in the courts. In the Yaniv case in British Columbia, the judge allowed Yaniv to remain anonymous when Yaniv initially pursued the case because of:

"JY's vulnerability as a transgender woman"

I'm not sure that the women who Yaniv was pursuing a case against were granted the same level of protection even though women, particularly from ethnic minorities, are vulnerable.

I don't see autogynephilia as a vulnerability.

That list you made of vulnerable people Arnold qualifies women.

Women and girls are vulnerable full stop. There's a thread on here at the moment about women who have been followed by predatory men. There have been many threads on Mumsnet about women's experience of rape, sexual assault and domestic violence. It happens to many, many women.

I think it's interesting that people can't see women's vulnerability right in front of them. That's the phenomenon I was talking about on this thread.

The sex stereotype rules are familiar and well enforced by men and women alike. So when you see a male (with all that innate power and privilege) ‘become’ a woman instead with all that associated powerlessness then it’s seen as awfully sad. A tragic and pitiable loss.

The absolute worst thing imaginable, in a world of sex stereotypes, is being born a member of the dominant sex class only to be ‘outed’ as really the weak and reviled second sex. What could be more tragic, devastating and at the same time brave and worthy of our support?