Woke DD and women in sports

[ElfrideSwancourt]

My eldest DD has recently finished at a woker than woke uni and is terribly woke now. She would consider herself a feminist but just doesn't get the issues with self ID and sport.

I usually avoid the subject because her attitude is one of the few things that we disagree on, but I did bring up women's sports today.

She tried all the usual 'but aren't they entitled to do sport' arguments but I just kept centering the women and how massively unfair it is and she just had no answers .

I'm really hoping that I have sowed some seeds, and now she is not at uni she will start to see the light.

I hope I can support my daughter should she decide not to agree with me on things.

What does that mean in practice though? That sounds like a meaningless platitude tbh.

I think the OP is being very supportive though - encouraging her DD to examine evidence and to think about all sides of the arguments not just one.

Avoiding serious issues is less genuinely supportive than having a sensible discussion, surely?

I don’t think going on about the subject will help because it pushes her into a corner and it’s difficult for her to back down. She’ll just keep defending the indefensible. My husband is a bit like this - he’s responsible for diversity in his organisation and likes to think of himself as a liberal and tolerant sort of guy. Mostly this is really good but has been difficult with the trans issue because it has been presented as the new progressive issue and instinctively this is where he would like to be. However he initially supported self I’d until I pointed out that this would mean that any man at all could ‘identify’ himself into the sports centre changing room where his teenage daughters changed. He can also see the problem with sport but still finds it hard to go against the TWAW mantra because it sounds nice and inclusive even if it is anything but. I leave research papers and newspaper articles around as a lower key way of putting the point across.

Stonewall never says anything about the trans community without adding ‘small and vulnerable’. This is deliberate as it means any questioning can be framed as big bad bullies vs vulnerable individuals. So I talk about the girls and women who have lost out on medals and scholarships to the male bodied cyclists, weight lifters, rugby and cricket players and athletes who cannot be described as ‘small and vulnerable’.

Show her the cycling tweets from the Manchester event.

Big Tantrum because the runner up didn’t give them a big hug and wear a solidarity badge 🙄 then much rudeness about lack of sportsmanship (shouldn’t that be sportswomanship?) and bitchy comments.

Says it all.

How freaking brainwashed can someone be? "Entitled to"... entitled to beat actual women?

Yes sir!

The daughter of a friend of mine is depressingly woke. It's all she ever talks about. And it's like listening to someone speaking another language. [Rolls eyes emoji that isn't on the list]

I’d ask her why she cares so much about them and so little for women and girls?

Errol my DD is also an engineer, so has spent her life so far competing against men intellectually, and beating them.

She has always been brought up that she is the match of, if not superior to, any male and I don't think the strength etc differences have really hit her yet.

Her sport requires skill and a particular build really helps - she has both of these so is the match of the men who also take part. I know this is not normal for most sports, but I'm not totally sure she does.

I've left it a bit for her to think on - going on about it will just get her back up and make her defensive.

I did give her all the examples at the time. She wasn't able to answer me because there is no answer, it's so patently unfair she could see that.

Thanks for all your input. I will get there with her, and hope she doesn't have to find out the hard way about male superior strength.

I wonder whether this infographic would be meaningful to her:

Like @Goosefoot I was also in the military at the same age and the fittest women were only ever at the level as the unfittest male when it can came to strength, runnjng, weighted marches etc.

Men are just stronger in that area due to their biology and however they "feel" inside doesn't change that 🤷🏻‍♀️

Women will, both on average and at at the extreme top of the range, always be physically disadvantaged compared to men in many respects. This is the trade-off for having bodies evolved to do the awesome physical tasks of growing, birthing and feeding a baby. Our bodies aren't 'lesser' - they're great for an incredibly physically demanding challenge which men can't do at all.

^ Indeed. Back in the 70's feminism was all about "there are no physical differences between men and women" and any mention of female biology being suited for giving birth and nourishing babies was utter heresy. It's one of the reasons I turned my back on feminism, back then, because I could not buy into that view.

and any mention of female biology being suited for giving birth and nourishing babies was utter heresy.

There is still a lot of angst around this sort of question, just look at any discussion of whether women as a class are more likely to be temperamentally suited to, or interested in, childrearing. Discussions like that can get pretty heated.

I know it’s not spots but this report made me want to cry.

www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-jury-rules-against-dad-trying-to-save-his-7-year-old-from-gender-transition

The mum is playing god.

and any mention of female biology being suited for giving birth and nourishing babies was utter heresy.

Seriously? Couldn't you even point out that Male biology is utterly unsuited to those tasks?
Good thing we now live in the era of MumsNet feminism, at least in part 'By parents, for parents' and as such unapologetically realistic about biology.

Tell your daughter that you'll support her views that TWAW if she can't pick out which one is the male cyclist in that Dutch team photo.

I used to have a snapshot of the picture, now I can't find it online!

OP, I was wondering if you'd seen this link. Might be worth a shot from this angle, if you haven't tried that.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3723819-Boys-women-com

women as a class are more likely to be temperamentally suited to, or interested in, childrearing.

Maybe, maybe not, but infinitely more likely to be physically suited to childbearing. That's the inescapable bit. And that's the bit that shapes the female body differently from the male.

Yes - the child rearing thing isn't a binary. Some women aren't good at it, some blokes are. Just like most other occupations etc.

Tell your daughter that you'll support her views that TWAW if she can't pick out which one is the male cyclist in that Dutch team photo.

The one on here, perhaps?

www.facebook.com/NatalieVanGoghPage/

That’s a hard one... is it ‘legs akimbo’, front and centre?

I have to admit only recently did I realise the male advantage in athletic type sports. I used to cycle when younger and took it back up recently (40 now). Initially I was aggrieved when the middle aged men I would turn up to ride with would automatically assume I would be the slowest (I wasnt). It was only when I started looking at trying to improve that I realised, for example, a good V02 max for a 40YO female is that of a 65YO male. To be honest I was shocked and then decided that I had been unfair on taking humbridge to the men's assumptions cos really all they were thinking is 'if she is better than me I must be shite'!!!! Cant find the Garmin one that I used but this illustrates it pretty well..www.verywellfit.com/what-is-vo2-max-3120097

ErrolTheDragon

Is it the one with the increased muscle mass and definition in their legs compared to the equally fit looking but smaller thigh and calf muscles? Or is that just a visual trick because they are very tall and if any biological woman of that height would have the same muscle mass in their legs?

I don't know if this has been posted yet but there's an unmentionable thing you might all be interested in, if you know what I mean. Developing quite quickly. Google is your friend.