Liz Truss criticised for saying she wants to protect "single-sex spaces and vulnerable women" re GRA in House of Commons

[stumbledin]

I found these quotes in an article about making IWD a public holiday and haven't had time tocheck in They Work For You / Hansard.

She seems to be more willing to make needing to protect women that Dawn Butler and Christine Jardine who are all about how horrible it is for trans people that GRA has not been passed.

Shadow women and equalities secretary Dawn Butler told MPs the government has been "kicking the can down the road" over reform of the Gender Recognition Act.

She said violence against transgender people has increased, and that more needs to be done to help.

Speaking in the Commons, Ms Butler said: "This reform of the Gender Recognition Act was promised in 2016.

"The minister doesn't need to look at it carefully, the minister just needs to expose what came out of the consultation and amend the Act, as promised.

"And the minister needs to stop kicking the can down the road. There has been a 37% increase in hate crime against transgender people.

"The minister is just exacerbating the pain and the hurt in the LGBT+ community."

Ms Truss replied: "I completely condemn the violence against trans people, and the Home Office and my colleague, the minister, is doing a lot of work to combat this."

Ms Truss said the new rules need to be worked out carefully to make sure everyone gets proper protection.

She said: "I won't be rushed into it. I'm very keen that we protect single-sex spaces and vulnerable women, and we don't rush into reform before we've had the full, proper discussion."

Liberal Democrat equalities spokeswoman Christine Jardine said trans people are facing abuse and violence for simply being who they are.

She accused the government of being the "most right-wing government in decades", and called for more rapid progress on the Gender Recognition Act.

www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/barry-sheerman-calls-extra-bank-17105742

Sorry, you're right, it is Latin. And what does cis mean, teawamtu? Indulge me.

TreaterAnita, as a lifelong Labour voter I'd love to think common sense will prevail, but where will it come from?

Jezza and his chosen pronouns?
Holding Dawn Butler's jacket while she chucks real women under the bus?
Layla Moran looking into everyone's souls for us?
Will Eddie Izzard speak for us from the women only shortlist?

Right now, I am forced to conclude that to preserve our rights I have to not just not vote for Labour and the Lib Dems, I have to actively vote to keep them OUT. I hate it and I'd love to be wrong, but I don't see another choice.

It's already been pointed out upthread that Transwomen commit violent crime and rape at the same rate as other biological males.

Biological women need safe spaces.

I'm happy for TW to have their own spaces too, but they don't belong with women when women are vulnerable.

It's actually a chemistry term but hey ho.
You've been told that it's insulting. You're not willing to listen but goad. Basically you are forcing a label on to people who don't want it and whole heartedly reject it.

"I've done my research." Is exactly what anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers et al say to justify their views. Coming on here and saying the same thing raises a red flag about just what kind of 'research' you've done on the subject.

The Romans called one of their provinces Cisalpine Gaul, meaning 'Gaul this side of the Alps'. I believe it's also used in chemistry as you stated.

But as men cannot become women, there's no need for cis to describe us. Males can call themselves transwomen if they like but that doesn't change what I am.

Connie, in the nicest possible way (of course) it's no one's job to 'indulge you'. And if the question 'how are women's rights threatened by transwomen' is genuine, I suggest you put the kettle on, make yourself comfortable and settle in for an afternoon reading these boards. The 'break it down for me' thread is a great place to start.

Busy today, but you can find it easily yourself because there is a thread somewhere on the feminism board in the last year with the numbers and sources.

Or find the source that backs up your position if you find that easier .

Information is based on the uk prison population. Actually when you find the numbers, it looks like transwomen are much more likely than men to be sex offenders, but the prison guys says that's partly because they don't record gender information for prisoners who are only in for a short time.

'break it down for me' thread is a great place to start.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

You're all much more patient than me today.

For the benefit of Connie, according to Wikipedia, cis gender is :
"Cisgender (sometimes cissexual, often abbreviated to simply cis) is a term for people whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth"

Calling me cisgender is insulting because I don't have a gender identity, I do not recognise or limit myself by the stereotypes of sex. I am a human who has female sex organs which makes me a woman. My potential is no different to that of a man except for how I would be involved the the production (or not) of offspring.

Gender is regressive stereotyping bullshit that should be discouraged, not encouraged.

Absinthefriends, I'm sure you are all changing the way the world thinks in this conversation strand, which is admirably pro-active. Vulnerability comes in many shapes, as does prejudice. Bandying the term 'stats' to support an opinion is dangerous. Spending your Saturday bitching at anyone who threatens 'woman' (etymology, by the way, is 'wife of man', which then evolved into woman - man therefore came first) on a website seems rather pointless, but I'm sure it's cathartic thinking you're putting the world to rights. I'm off to spend time with my family. Cheerio and have fun.

Trans means moving across, cis means unmoving.
So the terms should be trans female and trans male as moving from man to woman is impossible; no-one can change their chromosomes with a flick of hair or slash of lipstick.

Liz Truss is correct to acknowledge women's sex, as determined at conception and observed at birth, based rights matter.

There is no detail of how she is going to protect our rights though so I'm going to reserve judgement. For any party to gain my vote there needs to be a clear manifesto commitment to defining sex in law as an immutable, determined at conception and observed at birth characteristic that can never be identified into or out of, and a clear manifesto commitment to making single sex spaces a compulsory legal requirement.

Connie68 Sat 19-Oct-19 12:14:17
Mldgebabe. I would very much appreciate the source of your statistics. I'm sure you would be very happy to supply that information here? Many thanks.

“Citation or you can’t say it !” Straight from the Reddit \MRA playbook.

We’re not that daft.

connie ye talk shite, hen. "Woman" doesn't come from "wife of man", "woman" and "wife" both come from Old English "wifman". The spear counterpart term was "werman". Go back far enough and "man" meant "person", with the modifiers "wif" and "wer" to denote sex.

But hey, you did your research...

What threat to cis women do you think trans women are?

The same threat as men. A transwoman has a rape weapon built into their body and you expect me to trust them when they self-identify as unarmed. That's not going to happen. You expect me to be able to tell the difference between Karen White and a TW who means me no harm. The prison service couldn't get that right, so how am I meant to?

... With the next step usually being 'whatevs, you're all meanies on the wrong side of history, I'm off'.

It would help if people could distinguish between ally/useful resource/bestie.

If I'm attacked, and someone hands me a shield, I don't first question whether I compromise my integrity by accepting a shield from someone whose political persuasion I may not share.
I take the shield, and I protect myself with it.
And I'm not under any political obligation to the person who helped me to defend myself.

Heartily sick of people doing more damage than good by confusing the welcome acceptance of a shield from a political adversary with any kind of endorsement of any other view they may hold.

Grow up. Women's rights matter more than this.

I was pleased when Liz Truss was asked to take over the Equalities Minister role from Oenny Mordaunt.

I've been in touch with more than one Conservative MP and although their replies are always careful and measured, it is clear to me at least that they fully understand the need to protect single sex spaces while ensuring that transgender people also have suitable facilities.

Third spaces. Isn't that the sensible solution?

Oops, Penny not Oenny!

I’m an ‘unmoving woman’. I’m not fucking ‘’cis’ though.

Cis off.

Late into the chemistry pedanticism but 'Trans means moving across, cis means unmoving' is wrong. Trans can mean moving - which is why it's used in constructs such as transplant, transport, transsexual - words denoting change. Theres no equivalent cis meaning unmoving - it would be redundant. What would a cisplant or cisport be?

In very specific cases, not general usage, trans/cis can mean on different sides or same side - as in alps or stereochemistry. The use of 'cis' in relation to gender is a false backconstruction. And don't forget, a cis and a trans isomer are fundamentally different chemistries. The best known example for lay people is cis fats v trans fats.

Another example of stereochemistry is thalidomide. The thalidomide compound can form as one of two structures that are mirror images of each other. One of these is therapeutic, the other caused harm to thousands of babies.

Connie:
I would very much appreciate the source of your statistics. I'm sure you would be very happy to supply that information here? Many thanks

and

And I have done my research into this, extensively

Which is it? Do you want us to bring you the info, or have you done your research?

Yet another reason to love MN - always something new to learn from the knowledge of our members

I won’t be told who l can and can’t vote for. I won’t be shamed for voting to support women. I am still clinging on to my Labour membership in order to have a vote in the next Leadership election, but if push comes to shove and Liz Truss enacts legislation to protect women as a class then l am voting Tory.
It would be the first time in my life and l am not alone, l know other women thinking the same thing. I live in Jeremy Corbyns ward, the epicentre of the cult of Corbyn. There are women here that have been politically active for decades. Comrades of Jeremy that are aghast, these women walked the streets, knocked on doors, marched and protested alongside him. And for what ? We have been shown the hand, we cannot speak. We’ve had enough.