Drag.

[omikron]

I'm still struggling with whether Drag should be considered offensive to women.

On one hand I consider it to be in the same realm as Blackface.

On the other I see it as entertainment that was born out of the gay movement.

Can anyone persuade me to come down on one side or the other?

I should say I'm probably 60/40 against drag.

I was having this debate the other day. I personally find it offensive and on a par with blackface. It saddens me that it's now part of mainstream family entertainment.

It doesn’t bother me as long as drag artists don’t claim to be women, which the vast majority of them don’t.
History of drag in theatre goes back such a long way. Some are grotesques, yes, but they don’t say all women are like that, just the character they don with the dress and make up.

I'm not sure if it's an issue where you need to come down hard on one side or the other.

OTOH I have a lot more time for someone like Julian Clary who can don the most amazing outfits but never remotely pretends to be a woman.

Yes, if you strip it back then it is the equivalent of blackface. Men offending women doesn't really matter though apparently.

I'm not a fan but then I'm not a fan of over the top clothing and make up on anyone.

Both men and women can look great in a bit of subtle make up.

Both men and women look awful to me in over the top 'drag' style clothes and make up. They don't look human, it's that uncanny valley effect. Gives me the heebie jeebies if I'm honest.

Still, each to their own and I'm happy to ignore all the time drag artists are fully honest about being men and only frequent appropriately adult venues. Unlike pantomime dames, drag is a highly sexualised form of entertainment that is not suitable for children.

I'd like to know why women dressing as men for laughs is not (as) hugely popular. I'm not saying it never happens (there are some examples - French and Saunders had a crack at it didn't they?) but in the main it's men doing it that's big bucks.

The conclusion I come to is that there is more of an appetite for men taking the piss out of women in our culture.

Hooda thought it?

I really can't stand it. It feels like a parody of woman. Sexualised sequinned clothes, over the top make up, silly 'female' voices.

It's just horrid

When I was younger I liked the ones I used to see on TV. I think Julian Clary may have been one. I was a child and watching family television so perhaps it's not a great thing to base my views on, but it seemed to not take itself seriously and it was funny.

The kind of drag I see nowadays is apparently "a beautiful art". To me it looks hyper sexualised and I don't like it at all. Especially when kids are doing it.

By "it" I mean drag..not the people doing it. I'm not calling them it. Just to be clear.

I'd like to know why women dressing as men for laughs is not (as) hugely popular

I guess because most women dress 'like men' on a day to day basis. In real life both men and women routinely wear trousers, tops, no make up. A woman dressing 'like a man' is unremarkable, ordinary. A man dressing like the most ridiculously over the top appearance of a tiny minority of women who ever dress that way is, by contrast, vaguely note worthy.

Mrs Brown's boys 😭

I like what Arnold's has just said.

So these men are taking he piss out of a particular kind of (fairly rare) women.

Does anyone know what demographic watch things like RPdrag on the telly?

Is it a gay thing?

I can't imagine straight men are interested.

I am not remotely interested in adult drag but I also don't find myself being particularly offended by it either. I'm not convinced it is like black face. Clothes and make up are not really comparable to skin colour. I think child drag can be inappropriate esp if done for adult gratification.

There was a thread about this a few weeks ago (where's R0 when you need her)?

It helped me to work out that the drag that I love - Lily Savage, Cissy & Ada, Dame Edna for eg - are men playing characters rather than the RuPaul type of drag that I'm often uncomfortable with.

I really dislike drag. I think it's crass and I think it's men taking the piss out of women.

I really dislike the fact that when I click on iPlayer, Drag Race is permanently huge at the top of the screen. It's really being pushed. Why?

Oh and I hate when people start saying things about traditions of men dressing as women going back to Shakespeare... without mentioning that that happened because real women were not allowed on stage!

When I was younger I liked the ones I used to see on TV. I think Julian Clary may have been one. I was a child and watching family television so perhaps it's not a great thing to base my views on, but it seemed to not take itself seriously and it was funny.

He didn't do drag though. He was - for the time - an outrageously camp effeminate gay man. I don't ever remember him adopting a 'female' persona. And, he's wickedly funny, which is why he's now something of a 'national treasure' - he's as funny on radio 4 playing Just a Minute.

I really dislike the fact that when I click on iPlayer, Drag Race is permanently huge at the top of the screen..

Me too. It looks like shite.

Like I said above, who is the audience for this stuff?

I think it depends on how it's done. It can 110% be offensive, but also things like Mrs Browns Boys I find hilarious. But it's not sexual, I don't feel it's a parody/ mockery of women, as a lot of drag is.

Julian Clary was fabulous, an 80s icon, but I agree with Errol he wasn't doing drag.

I remember my mother being fascinated by him and his make up!

I used to think it was fun. I now find it really sinister and offensive. The parody of women - bitchy, overmade up, full of innuendos. And the sexualised names of a lot of them.
And they are going into schools. How is this becoming mainstream?

I really enjoy rupaul’s drag race. I don’t think it’s men taking the piss out of women (no doubt that kind of drag does exist though).
I see people from a historically very marginalised group who have found something they love and people who accept them. I think when they started it must have been very liberating. Hearing their stories, I see no piss-taking at all.
I hate shite like Mrs Browns Boys.

Interesting question - I’m wary of drag and don’t like it coming into libraries et al.

At a gay club, as entertainment? In two minds - it can be mocking but also celebratory.

Also, can I respectfully suggest avoiding comparing Drag / TW to Blackface if possible. A number of black women have explained why it is a painful and inaccurate comparison for them, and we can critique drag without it.

I say this as someone who said it myself in the past