Drag.

[omikron]

I'm still struggling with whether Drag should be considered offensive to women.

On one hand I consider it to be in the same realm as Blackface.

On the other I see it as entertainment that was born out of the gay movement.

Can anyone persuade me to come down on one side or the other?

I'm not homophobic and I do understand how it has arisen as part of gay culture. But it still uses the "feminine is lesser/degrading" premise which is why it feels offensive and why it needs to be challenged.

I don't think its homophobic to have a problem with drag, in general I think we are too ready to clam people are hateful or phobic when they disagree with something presented as being relevant to some sort of progressive movement.

But I suppose what I wonder is if drag is always or has to be about this idea that the feminine is lesser? I know there is drag that is done that way, but then there is music and films and paintings like that as well, and it reflects the people doing them. Even if a lot of films were like that I'd not say they have to be.

But is what drag is always about, in the same way that I would say that pornography is always about exploiting people sexually? I would tend to say it's not even if its common.

Blackface comparisons, and "costumes you can't take off" comparisons, to me don't work. Blackface, in the sense of American minstrel shows, are a problem to me for specific historical reasons. I do not think it is an inherent problem to dress up in a theatrical way as another person or ethnicity or sex, or whatever our particular society thinks race is.

in general I think we are too ready to clam people are hateful or phobic when they disagree with something presented as being relevant to some sort of progressive movement.

This is an excellent point in its own right @goose and I agree.

Can anyone persuade me to come down on one side or the other?

For me it is not an intellectual exercise....I have always found it distasteful, and yes, offensive. That is just based on instinctive response.

Plus when I made the effort to watch the first episode Ru-Paul' Drag Race. the other day - I found much of the chat very offensive.Calling women slappers & slags, and making references and gestures to bad smelling, foul genitalia, just for starters.

Clothes and make up are not really comparable to skin colour

But mimicking breasts is.....

Is 'blacking up' inherently offensive for a white person to do -whatever the context? If so, & using the same criteria, then so is drag - especially when so much derogatory language is used about women too.

This board: we want to abolish gender Men: Okay, I’m gonna dress in clothes traditionally worn by women

It's not the clothing, it is the often offensive language and disdainful portrayals. everyone is encouraged to look upon the 'woman' as a 'right old slapper', 'easy shag', 'slag' etc It is most often hyper-sexualised, crude and disdainful.

This board: we want to abolish gender

Men: Okay, I’m gonna dress in clothes traditionally worn by women

This board: No, not like that

Let me fix that for you:

This board: we want to abolish gender

Men: Okay, I'm gonna dress in a hypersexualised way and make jokes about women smelling like fish

This board: fuck off you inadequate wanker

I don't like it for many of the reasons above and I also wonder who watches it. At mil's yesterday when an advert for the programme was on the tv and it just looked shit; neither funny nor interesting. What's the point of it?

White men almost always "punch down", whether violently or in mockery.
Even when they try to mock themselves, like Python did, they end up punching down more often than they think.

Can anyone persuade me to come down on one side or the other?

Just watch RuPaul's Drag Race or go to a drag show and see if you're happy with all the misogynistic jokes and comments.

Drag doesn't celebrate femininity, it legitimises the rampant misogyny that has pervaded the male gay community for years.

Fundamentally, the inequality of power is at the core of why it's wrong. That's also why it was wrong for minstrels to parody blacks in the US.

White minstrels did it to parade and authenticate THEIR whiteness, to demonstrate they could dehumanize blacks and have an audience cheer.

Men can don the costume of woman and portray us as THEY wish. Stupid, shallow, petty, hypersexualized, and my personal favorite (seen at a live show years ago), asking to be raped. How is this ok? How can any feminist support this? I still have yet to see any response (over the many discussions on MN about drag) that make me question my thoughts on this.

My feminism centers women, not gay men.