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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hilary and Chelsea Clinton discuss trans issues

89 replies

zanahoria · 14/10/2019 07:20

"The one thing she and her mother don’t appear to agree on entirely is the question of transgender self-identification. Their book features Danica Roem, the first trans woman elected to a US state legislature, and when I ask if someone with a beard and a penis can ever be a woman, Chelsea peers at me as if I’ve just asked if the sun rises in the east. “Ye-esss. Yes.” Hillary is looking uneasy. “

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hillary-clinton-chelsea-interview-8j33c8vt5?&wgu=270525_54264_15710328024183_776
741b996&wgexpiry=1578808802

OP posts:
BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 17:36

But I think also Democrats such as AOC, who doesn’t come from privilege I don’t think, parrot the TWAW line

AOC was tweeting support for Mermaids and encouraging donations.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/10/2019 17:37

AOC?

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 17:40

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 17:41

And the idea that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is underprivileged is as credible as Owen Jones being working class.

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 17:52

This is the Warren incident a poster referred to. There is video footage of it. Warren almost explodes with self-satisfaction.

Warren was asked what she’d say if a supporter told her they believed “marriage was between one man and one woman”. Warren replied: “Well, I’m going to assume it’s a guy who said that. And I’m going to say, then just marry one woman. I’m cool with that. Assuming you can find one.”

pallisers · 14/10/2019 18:05

well if someone asked me about marriage between one man and one woman, I'd probably explode with something myself. Warren is a senator from a state which has had same sex marriage for more than 15 years. The supreme court has said laws banning same sex marriage are unconstitutional. It is probably the social issue that is most acceptable to moderate conservatives. What was she supposed to say? The gibe at the guy was probably unwise but does anyone really think if she had given a more measured response he might have considered voting for her?

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 14/10/2019 18:11

What was she supposed to say?

'You are entitled to your beliefs and while I don't share them I will continue to support the religious freedoms on which our great nation was founded.'

pallisers · 14/10/2019 18:30

yeah that would have been more measured. But nothing she said will affect her likely vote in a presidential race one whit. Nobody who believes strongly in the "traditional marriage" thing is likely to vote for Elizabeth Warren or indeed any Democrat.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 14/10/2019 18:38

Maybe not, pallisers, but I am very put off by talk of 'punishing religions who refuse gay marriage' as suggested by O'Rourke, and I'm a born and raised atheist in 40% not religious Scotland.

I can't imagine that such talk plays well with swing voters in the much more deeply religious US of A.

It comes across as a teensy bit totalitarian.

GrinitchSpinach · 14/10/2019 19:14

The Establishment Clause of our constitution makes it extremely clear that the US government may not favor one creed over any other. If O'Rourke had argued to remove tax-exempt status from all religious organizations, that would have been logically consistent and (probably; I am not on SCOTUS!) constitutional.

O'Rourke's assertion that he would seek specifically to remove tax-exempt status from those congregations that do not marry gays and lesbians (but retain it for those who do) seems to fly in the face of this clause of the constitution. To echo what Arnold said, but from an American perspective, that is very, very, very off-putting even to this atheist.

To be clear, as the monitors sometimes need things spelling out, that is not at all because I don't support gay and lesbian marriage. I do! I am just extremely alert to the dangers of government endorsing one form of religious belief or strongly-held feelings of conscience over any other, and exacting penalties against those creeds currently out of favor.

I don't know whether Warren's comment came before or after O'Rourke's during the forum---does anyone know? If it was after, that seems particularly flat-footed.

GrinitchSpinach · 14/10/2019 19:35

Also, yes, this:

It's hard to think of a woman who has lived a life freer from fear of assault than Chelsea Clinton.

Thank you, Womb. Not just the protection of class privilege, but literal Secret Service agents protecting her throughout her formative years (still? I don't know about that part) HAS to have had an effect on her perspective.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/10/2019 19:50

She had a lot of crap thrown at her on social media over the years so perhaps this is why she sees the ‘victim’ or underdog side here (if only blinded by who is actually threatening to do what to who).

Doobigetta · 14/10/2019 19:54

Look on the bright side, though, Hillary’s clearly on our page. I think it’s worth a little cheer when any influential woman turns out not to have completely fallen.

pallisers · 14/10/2019 20:04

I also don't agree with "punishing" religions even with the removal of the tax exemption but that wasn't what Warren said. No idea why Beto is still even in the race tbh.

I do have a problem with religions taking their religious exemptions but then being clearly political and partisan.

My point is that someone who is deeply religions and conservative will never vote for a democrat - no matter how measured the response is about "traditional" marriage. Anyone who has a problem with same sex marriage is not a likely swing vote.

For this election I hope that the democratic party concentrates on getting out the voters who actually believe in their values/aims rather than changing the mind of the republican or swing voters - a doomed exercise. Stacy Abrams is particularly good on this concept.

I also hope the Clintons just shut up.

FWRLurker · 14/10/2019 20:19

Well I have to say I am completely thrilled to hear Hillary C come out and express the view that concern about these issues is not insane or bigoted. Now she just has to talk to her long time friend and ally who’s running for president...

I’ll have to tell my right wing Hillary loathing parents that they agree with her about something haha...

StopThePlanet · 14/10/2019 20:23

Chelsea doesn't have a clue - you realize her estimated net worth is $15MM, right? She has no fucking idea what it is to be a normal American or a middle-class American or or a low income American or frankly any American that isn't a former president's and secretary of state's daughter. A total of 67 daughters were born to first ladies and US presidents. Put that in perspective, Chelsea is part of a group of 67 people total to date for the U.S. I don't think Chelsea is a liar or a bad person I just think she's very comfortable in her insulation and ignorance.

Warren has been appropriating indigenous culture for decades and has benefited as has Harvard and other institutions by way of federal diversity grants. She is as white and privileged as white and privileged can be - and a lying appropriator to boot. She is not equipped to lead but honestly none of our Dem candidates are. She is disingenuous and a wolf in sheep's clothing, she is highly educated and incredibly elite she knows what she's doing.

AOC is a fucking joke, she couldn't math her way out of a paper bag and she supposedly studied economics. She is a lying appropriator as well... she did not grow up in the Bronx or Brooklyn or Harlem for that matter she grew up in a sleepy safe suburban area. Her mother may have scrubbed toilets after her dad passed 11yrs ago to make ends meet but her dad was CEO of his own architecture firm until his death. People go on and on and on about how she worked two jobs to help her mom pay the bills and how her mom had to "clean toilets" to make ends meet but she was in college at the time she started her first full-time job. Nothing about that story is representative of anyone living in socioeconomically depressed burros in our major cities or socioeconomically depressed rural areas. She knows some struggle and has likely faced racism due to her parents PR roots but she is far far far far removed from any inner-city or rural person growing up in an economically depressed environment. Her claims of being a "Bronx girl" are as truthful as her TWAW mantra.

I'm an atheist and I'm not conservative - I like facts and actual math and pragmatism in relation to binary sex, social policies, governmental oversight, etc. I'm so sick of all these political personalities pushing the TWAW mantra and ignoring real vulnerability (like the fact that 1 of 30 children in the U.S. are homeless). Yeah yeah we hear you keep campaigning to have dicks in other woman's spaces (because your class shields you from it) reserved for vulnerable girls and let's be all porn positive and tell girls they aren't allowed to have boundaries or ask questions and that they don't have any right to physical or emotional privacy and that they have to put themselves second to men of any stature of any presentation as long as they appropriate the word female.

Great just great.

Women (and men) that claim to support women but believe/preach TWAW are telling the rest of us to bend over spread our cheeks and take all the dicks while they live in their insulated ivory towers free from any dick they don't want to encounter.

All politicians are a joke as our country is run by lobbyists, ultra wealthy individuals, corporations, and military conquests. Most politicians don't author their own bills and often aren't aware of the contents. We spend way too much on foreign aid for political gain and not for the right reasons - we put millions upon millions of dollars into the hands of drug lords, fascists, et al while the people of those countries suffer so severely that they flee seeking refuge.

zanahoria · 14/10/2019 20:41

" Hillary’s clearly on our page"

it surprised me as the democrats have swallowed the kool aid on this one.

OP posts:
SonicVersusGynaephobia · 14/10/2019 20:47

I must say I'm impressed by Hillary Clinton's more measured response.

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 21:28

Warren has been appropriating indigenous culture for decades and has benefited as has Harvard and other institutions by way of federal diversity grants. She is as white and privileged as white and privileged can be - and a lying appropriator to boot. She is not equipped to lead but honestly none of our Dem candidates are. She is disingenuous and a wolf in sheep's clothing, she is highly educated and incredibly elite she knows what she's doing

Warren is a disgrace. The only thing wrong with Trump calling her Pocahontas is that Pocahontas was a real indigenous woman; Tiger Lily from Peter Pan would have been nearer the mark.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/10/2019 22:07

Where did she get the idea from that she was part Native American? Was it lies?

Trumps gibes we’re still racist though.

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 22:27

I think his remarks would have been racist if she were an indigenous woman. It was clearly Warren he was mocking and she deserved it.

I don't know why she made up the story about being indigenous. She was pretty much forced to have a DNA test which showed she has the same teeny, tiny amount of indigenous DNA which millions of Americans have, despite having no connection at all with indigenous cultures. It was the equivalent of saying we all are descendants of Eve from the African continent.

In the oppression Olympics indigenous peoples win (or do I mean lose?) hands down over all other minorities and indigenous women are at the bottom of the pile.

StopThePlanet · 14/10/2019 22:34

Where did she get the idea from that she was part Native American?

At one point she claimed that her mother was NA and that her parents eloped as her father's family didn't approve. She has revised the narrative to now be that she was told stories by her mother and her grandmother about her native ancestry. She has apologized over and over again for misrepresenting her heritage to the Cherokee Nations et al she can't bring herself to just admit that she lied and that she's been lying about her ancestry since she started college.

There was and still is this affinity for the assumptions about NA cultures and many people lay claim to those ancestral lines. But most of them heard a story about a story from a parent or grandparent and it's really the desire to feel native to this country beyond citizenship IMO. I've met so many people that claim to be NA but clearly are not. Just because you have a fraction of some shared ancestry does not make you NA; it makes you like most Americans - a big mix.

She contributed recipes to a book called Pow Wow Chow wherein she gave recipes that she had lifted from newspapers and cookbooks which weren't even remotely similar to the diverse NA cuisines. I doubt she has any idea what happens at a Pow Wow and I doubt even more that she's ever been to one.

pallisers · 14/10/2019 22:37

Warren was told by her parents that she was part native american. A lot of american families have similar family beliefs. I don't care where AOC grew up nor do I care what heritage Warren thought she had - every politician spins a story to some extent (trump as successful businessman, Biden as general nice guy etc). I do care about their policies.

It is extraordinary that the words "highly educated" and "incredibly elite" are now regarded as insults in the american political arena.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 14/10/2019 22:39

@BrendaLast but I don’t think he knew that? He was being racist when he thought there was some truth to it. Just because she was telling porkies doesn’t make it not racist.

BrendaLast · 14/10/2019 22:52

@BrendaLastbut I don’t think he knew that?

I guess like anyone else he used the evidence of what he saw before him and her biographical details which are on public record.

Trump's loathsome but on this one, I'll cut him some slack. Her behaviour is indefensible.