Transgender people supporting adult human females?

[FemaleAndLearning]

Hi
I was wondering who in the transgender community supports the definition of woman as adult human female?
Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlando, Rose Dawn?

I ask because the debate for retaining single sex spaces and keeping sex as a protected characteristic is often perceived as 'them and us' and I know this not to be true. I would like some examples to fire off when I get into discussions.

Debbie Hayton - she writes very good articles for The Times.

www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/03/gender-identity-needs-to-be-based-on-objective-evidence-rather-than-feelings

From my previous reading of Debbie's posts on here, Debbie doesn't believe in single sex spaces for women, but just in limiting which people born male may use women's spaces. Women's feelings about this and exclusion of women by this is not considered relevant.

Miranda Yardley is the main example, and Miranda usually talks of themselves as transsexual as opposed to transgender.

Detransitioners eg Charlie Evans are usually very compelling when discussing Woman=AHF

Seven Hex.

Kristina Jayne Harrison

Definitely Miranda Yardley, Miranda doesn't insist on female pronouns and is quite happy living as Miranda, knows that he is still male, is perfectly willing to be referred to by birth sex.
Debbie is very disingenuous and quite dishonest about Debbie's motives. Debbie thinks it's funny when women insist that they need private space for toilet use. Debbie also insists that children use Miss when referring to Debbie.
I don't know enough about Fionne to comment.

I've also seen Kristina (in person) state that women's toilets would be used in some circumstances.

Blair white?

Rose isn’t GC - Rose just thinks TRAs are unreasonable/bonkers/hypocritical.

There are quite a few transsexuals who are against self ID, but aren’t GC.

Seven Hex writes well: sevenhex.com/

Thanks everyone I'll do a bit more reading and viewing. I hadn't made the link between GC and those just denouncing the more bonkers side.

I find it more productive and less stressful to think about transsexuals who have some common goals with women (e.g. against GRA reform, against queer theory), rather than necessarily supporting us as such. TS have their own skin in the game and their interests only partially intersect with ours. It's a recipe for disappointment expecting TS to agree with us on everything. Where our interests overlap we can maybe work together, but in a strategic alliance sort of way, rather than as 'allies'. It's a bit like working with the right wing - you need clear boundaries and to keep your wits about you.

I can see the attraction of bringing up a 'trans person who agrees with me' in a discussion but I think it's a mistake. Our rights are not contingent on whether a male person agrees.

Iirc Seven Hex uses Male loos despite being fully transexual. Seven has been involved in a lot of the the campaigning in Scotland around the sex/ gender self I'd thing on the GC women's side.

Talking at the Newcastle group last year:

Jenn Smith is highly gender critical.

Great post, Pencils

Same rules as for strategically working with any other males, I guess.

I think there was a letter to the editor, in The Times I think, about 8-12 months ago, that was signed by over a dozen trans women with concerns.

I love Fionne Orlando.

I agree with you pencils. At the same time, certain people I've spoken to don't feel fully comfortable with certain arguments until I give examples of transgender people who also see the fallacies in the ideology, partly as their perspective adds to the "whole picture" for that individual. Usually those people who are worried they're missing something in terms of 'is this bigotry.'

I agree it's best not to think of allies but rather that there are common positions that can be strategically allied as you say.

None are Gender Critical, obviously, because they conform to gender stereotypes. But there are quite a few who stand up and say "We don't feel like the sex we are born, but we understand our needs are very different to those of women, there is conflict.

medium.com/@cathyabrowne/dear-trans-sibling-29ac12b13f20

This is supposed to be by Fionne’s sister. It’s very moving.

Our rights are not contingent on whether a male person agrees.

This.

Please don't use TS people, however nice, as appeals to authority.

1. they're not women

2. nor are they human shields for women too afraid to speak for themselves and themselves alone

I can see the attraction of bringing up a 'trans person who agrees with me' in a discussion but I think it's a mistake. Our rights are not contingent on whether a male person agrees.

Very much agree Pencils. I think doing this is what female socialisation leads us to do. I am trying to resist.

DH has never, once, appealed to a female authority in conversations where he is trying to persuade me of his position. Yet I see women all the time appealing to male people to bolster their argument. Why? We as women should be able to speak better than any man about why single sex female provision is important for us. We are fully human too.

PencilsInSpace

Interesting, i'm a transsexual and I am completely opposed to all the "I identify as" nonsense that has taken over the trans community. In fact there is a growing subreddit where a lot of us who think this way are speaking out about it more and more, and one of the things that was mentioned recently is how GC people and transsexuals have a lot of common ground and have no reason to be at odds with each other. And not long after that, I stumble onto this post.

The way you frame a possibility of transsexual and GC people having common ground and working together comes of as very disingenuous. While I may be a transsexual woman, in my daily life for all intents and purposes I am just a woman. Me and others like me may not share all the same experiences in life as cis women, but we still sympathize will all the struggles you face even if we don't face those particular struggles ourselves and (I guess I can only speak for myself on this) would be happy to fight for all womens rights, whether they apply to all women or just cis women. But it seems like you are suggesting that the only reason for cooperation between us would be for your own benefit and to strengthen your own arguments. So why would transsexual people who are fed up with what's going on agree to this when you still belittle us and flat out call us our birth sex even while talking about a "strategic partnership"? If this is how most GC people feel about us and your goal is to just use us to boost your arguments with no regard for us, then maybe we don't as much common ground as I though.

Caldenzie I think you need to re read pencils post.

Our rights are not contingent on whether a male person agrees.

We need to remember this.