Genital preferences

[Sexnotgender]

It really bloody rips my knitting when I read comments about genital preferences.

Being heterosexual or homosexual isn’t about genital preferences, it’s a SEXUAL preference.

As in the sex of people you are attracted to.

I know I’m probably preaching to the choir but it’s just another attempt to muddy the language.

I'm going to say that sexuality can be a lot more fluid than I used to think. Having discovered women sexually for the first time.

Radical feminism is of course about the liberation of women, not about the insistence that men and women are identical. But in fact liberal feminism doesn't usually say there are no differences in male and female, just that the differences are much more about socialisation than we allow for. Brains are plastic and develop according to experiences.

Do I think castigating people for 'genital preferences' is homophobic? Yes. But I do like openness to love and attraction and new experiences. And speaking as someone who gets referred to as having a 'Male brain' just because I like sex so much, I think most quick categorisation of people along sex lines is limiting.

Blimey, I'll be twitter friends with Rmck soon.

Makes me yearn for proper philosophy in schools (not pomo McK type "tell a big enough lie with a straight enough face and people will be so confused they don't actually stop you" fake philosophy).

It's the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions.

For me as a straight woman, a prospective partner having a penis is a necessary condition for me.

But of course on its own having a penis isn't a sufficient condition. I also want all the other physical attributes (broad shoulders, narrow hips, deeper voice, preferably muscular sinewy forearms - I have a big thing for forearms) plus personality traits like kindness, intelligence, enthusiasm for life, ability to see other people's perspectives, shared values. Oh and preparedness to clean the toilet.

But a woman could have these features and I wouldn't want to have sex with her - because no penis. Necessary condition.

The genitals have been the last thing I saw in anyone I’ve ever fancied (and often I’ve still never seen ‘em) yet I’ve still managed to be attracted to people who ( and I confess this is just an assumption on my part) all have penises.

But I do like openness to love and attraction and new experiences. And speaking as someone who gets referred to as having a 'Male brain' just because I like sex so much, I think most quick categorisation of people along sex lines is limiting.

In which case you’d be bisexual?

As you’re open to dating either sex. Apologies if I’ve misinterpreted your post.

Taking this slightly out of context but I think it shows the dangers of this 'preference' business.

A FB post from a friend:

Watching Surviving R Kelly and his older brother says his brother just had a preference for “younger women”.

Fuck off you paedophile apologist you are sick and you and your evil sibling should be in prison.

Respect to any woman who prefers her own sex, I can only speak from my own experience! I'd be interested to know the lesbian perspective.

The thing for me about preferring the real male body is - it fits.

Slim hips, narrow pelvis and flat stomach mean a better fit without uncomfortable pressure on hips, or pressing down on diaphragm (the breathing sort). Big shoulders, biceps and thighs mean stamina, plus ability not to flob down and crush before, during and after. It's all rather harmonious.

The entire body is sexed from molecular levels. A biologist, chemist, osteoarchaeologist etc would KNOW a body was male or female.

So it's not 'genital preference' - it's a holistic opposite otherness that attracts and intrigues.

A superficial surface illusion of maleness does not have that visceral oomph that, say, Jason Momoa ... and I think I'll stop there ...

I think most quick categorisation of people along sex lines is limiting.

I don't understand what you mean by quick categorisation of people along sex lines.
Limiting in what way?

I also don't understand how the enjoyment of sex equates to male brain.
Men do tend to have higher sex-drives but that doesn't mean that a woman with a high sex drive has a male brain.

I am genital phobic I suppose. I find genitals quite an unattractive body part. Whether they're male or female.

Exactly. I'm bisexual - not two types of genitals sexual. Not particularly into disembodied sexual organs of any type (not envy)

It's the totality of the person including their sex which makes them irresistible.

And speaking as someone who gets referred to as having a 'Male brain' just because I like sex so much

Lots of women love sex and can often have higher sex drives than their male sexual partners....I'm wondering whether people have described you"having a male brain" because you are open to lots of 'casual sex'? I'd say that women, generally, are not as promiscuous as men, or if they are it comes with more 'baggage'.

In Toorahtoorahaye's posted "Feminists against Transphobia" pic, the bodies of yellow and green don't match the genitals. Yellow has the hip-waist-shoulder ratios of an hourglass adult female, not of a male with breast implants. Green has the hip-waist-shoulder ratios of a "dad bod" male, not a female post-mastectomy. It's as if the artist used a female model for yellow and a male for green, then just swapped the genitals.

If this graphic reflects what transitioners think happens to your body when you take cross-sex hormones, 1) they're going to be sorely disappointed, and 2) no wonder they think that you can't tell a clothed person's sex just by looking at them. Images like that perpetuate the delusion that sex can be changed when it can't.

Another bisexual chiming in to say that I'm attracted to whole people rather than just their disembodied genitals. I do have some penis related preferences, mind, but in the end no penis is any use to me unless I'm attracted to the man it's attached to.

(Pretty much all vulvas are lovely, imo)

The mix and match approach to genitals in relation to secondary sexual characteristics, otoh, doesn't work for me. I'm guessing I'm not the only bisexual for whom that's the case.

The yellow one basically has “perfect pornstar hourglass proportions with a penis attached”.

Do they do hands and hips surgery? cause that’s what’s needed to look like the yellow one.

I like curry and i like ice cream. That doesn't mean i want them mixed together.

Regarding the rather unpleasant graphic, I assumed the yellow one was FtM, ie a woman with phaloplasty and the green MtF, ie a man who'd been castrated and had his penis surgically flayed and inverted. I take it this was not the intent.

Even in cartoon form my brain accurately sexes not from genitals, but from whole human beings.

The mix and match approach to genitals in relation to secondary sexual characteristics, otoh, doesn't work for me. I'm guessing I'm not the only bisexual for whom that's the case.

Agreed. Mix and match of gendered accoutrements and sex is one thing - eyeliner and a well-fitting dress on a 100% male body is fine (and often much better than fine). Mix and match of secondary sexual characteristics and genitals, however, is quite a specialised type of pornography and really does nothing for me (because I am not a man with a weird fetish).

I'm all for the long hair and eyeliner on men! Many women are. Boobs, not so much.

Equally, short hair and a smart suit on a woman = excellent. Penis on a woman = not excellent.

Oh god yeah prodigalkittens, every man I’ve ever had a crush on (and the only man I’ve ever dated, who is currently making us lunch!) has had long hair. I blame Jason Issacs as Malfoy and all the drop dead gorgeous Elves in Lord of the Rings when I was growing up. Doesn’t mean I’m attracted to women with long hair though. The hair is just part of the package

Agree @TheProdigalKittensReturn

That's the true place of 'gender' imo - it's something playful and subjectively sexy - a woman in a sharp trouser suit - a long haired man in eyeliner. It's not there to convince us the woman is actually male or vice versa.

We need to start some kind of free course in this stuff for confused millenials.

We need to start some kind of free course in this stuff for confused millenials

Oh please run one. As a bi woman I get fed up of explaining this shit to people. It’s worse than back in the 90s when I came out and everyone thought bisexuals were all sluts or into threesomes.

I’ve also seen people online say that we should call it bigenderal or replace the B in LGBT with a P for pan. There’s some nasty biphobia that has come around lately.

I (straight woman) am working with a Transwomen at the moment who I find wildly sexy, and I am aware that I am responding to her as a man. She is taut, muscular, and relishes a ‘tomboy ‘ presentation as a woman.

Meanwhile I have a lesbian friend who has settled down with a Transman.

It seems to be about sex, pheromones, ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ rather than ‘masculinity ‘ or ‘femininity ‘.

That graphic has the visual vocabulary of propaganda posters. Funny, that.

Bezalelle - reassessing it - yes, it really does.

The TRA mindset seems to think that just because you might like someone's external appearance due to clothing and make-up, you must like and be willing to have sex with them once the clothes come off as well - otherwise you are transphobic.

It's pretty dumb because trans stuff aside, I've met men that I've felt sort of attracted to, but when the clothes come off, something about their body doesn't quite appeal - maybe excess back or chest hair, or even too little of it. I'm really put off by men who shave their chest or pubic hair. I love a certain amount and type as it feels masculine. Similarly, I might not find their penis attractive. The look and shape of male and female genitals do matter for sexual attraction - for me anyway.

I'm not looking for perfection, but how a person looks naked is just as important to me as to how they look clothed, and I don't date men (or women) if I don't feel aroused by their physical body.

The same would apply to a trans person. Even if I might feel attracted to their external appearance, once the clothes come off and the genitals don't match (a transman's fake penis can never compare to the real thing), then whatever sexual desire I've had up go that point will disappear.

It's incel logic to demand people put aside their subconscious attraction to specific bodies and guilt them to have sex with someone they do not find attractive. No one is entitled to sex, including trans people. If I can reject natal men based on their body, I can do the same for trans folk.