Non binary 12 year old on Today Program

[PancakeAndKeith]

Quick post as I’m getting ready for work.

Boy said he was non binary and talked about how he didn’t feel that he fitted in.
However everyone referred to him by a male name and called him him.

It struck me that he was a very articulate and sensitive boy who was never going to fit in with the standard idea of masculinity. I wonder if he is struggling and the more gendered world of high school.

It’s a shame that children like him feel that they have to tie themselves in knots just because they don’t fit in with a stereotype.

The whole worm argument is just so bizarre. It is like saying horses have four legs, therefore so do humans.

I just can't reconcile the 'he's so mature' with the 'he's so staggeringly ill informed he just compared humans to worms'.

The discussion at 8.50 was great, Stephanie was so clear. Hopefully the HT was listening and taking note.

Actually I totally get why "non- binary" seems like a good option when you feel that your other choices are "toxic masculinity " on the one hand, and "hyper-femininity " on the other.

Yes Barbarian, agree. I think that's why so few people I know are binary as it is so unappealing. My issue is the anti-science stuff that is currently wrapped around the rejection of gender stereotypes. He is only 12 - it is his parents and teachers going along with the anti-science bollocks that are the problem.

One of the most important points Stephanie Davis-Arai made, is that identifying as non-binary is now increasingly leading to a medicalised path.

Especially concerning is the issue of mastectomy for young women, so they can achieve what they believe is a 'non-binary' body.

When I was in primary and early secondary I wished I was a boy.
In primary I thought it was so unfair the boys got to take their tops off when it was hot and girls weren't! And that they could wear shorts at school and girls couldn't. At 11/12 I felt it was easier to be a boy, boys could ask girls out, be bolder. Girls couldn't. I noticed how fat boys didn't get the teasing fat girls did.

Do I wish I was a boy now?! Hell no. Kids don't understand at that age, and I'm thankful when I was a child this wasn't a big thing as I'd of probably decided I was male and it would of been so cool and trendy 🙄 It's so hard and confusing for children these days. Children need to know they don't have to follow a gender stereotype in order to belong to that gender.

Actually I totally get why "non- binary" seems like a good option when you feel that your other choices are "toxic masculinity " on the one hand, and "hyper-femininity " on the other.

Yup.

It's just gutting that the response in schools etc to this is to e.g. follow mermaids etc rather than work to recognise that gender stereotypes harm everybody and to break those down.

Gutting is putting it mildly. It seems entirely inexplicable to me. How much easier would it be to do away with gender stereotypes than to convince children that bodily mutilation is their path to peace and happiness?

Actually I totally get why "non- binary" seems like a good option when you feel that your other choices are "toxic masculinity " on the one hand, and "hyper-femininity " on the other.

If you look at the mermaid etc charts, with Barbie on one side and GI Joe on the other reinforcing this idea, then everyone is in between. Young children are very open to stereotypes when they are trying to work out what makes them male or female. I remember my little brother refusing to flush the toilet, then crying when I told him to, because "boys don't flush toilets" when he was about 5 years old They are busy learning from what is around them.

Stephanie Arai-Davies was so good. She really does know her stuff and I think that explaining that 'non-binary' leads onto pathways of hormones and mastectomy, without coming over as sensationalist was really well handled.

Especially concerning is the issue of mastectomy for young women, so they can achieve what they believe is a 'non-binary' body.

Yes, SisterWendy - and a body without breasts (a female secondary sexual characteristic) is not "non-binary" - it's seeing a male body as the default or neutral or the "universal."

I just can't reconcile the 'he's so mature' with the 'he's so staggeringly ill informed he just compared humans to worms'.

I wonder if some people who say things like this just don't spend much time with children. Some children are very good at repeating what they hear around them from adults, and it's easy to mistake that for some kind of real insight or understanding. But they often don't understand the words in an adult way at all.

I just can't reconcile the 'he's so mature' with the 'he's so staggeringly ill informed he just compared humans to worms'.

The very first book DD chose to bring home from the school library was 'The Life Cycle of the Snail'. Somehow even at 4 years old she wasn't in the least confused by the fact that they're hermaphrodites but most other creatures - including people - aren't. Neither did she have much time for stupid stereotypes as to what she should or shouldn't be interested in or wear.

When my son was small he took a notion for a pet snail, so I figured what the hey, we can gather a few up and stick them in a pot with a lid, they're snails, they'll probably won't live long. Naturally his sister also insisted on having snails even though she thought they were slimy and horrible, so we ended up bring about a dozen home.

Hoo boy was I wrong about snails. Little buggers live forever and produce their entire body weight in shit every single day!

Still, my boy did get a nice certificate for 'interesting contributions to show and tell' out of it.

(I'll stop derailing now)

Speaking as a zoologist, his grip on biology was no worse than that of the average person in the street.

Actually I totally get why "non- binary" seems like a good option when you feel that your other choices are "toxic masculinity " on the one hand, and "hyper-femininity " on the other.

I completely agree.
It’s the stereotypes that need to change.
This boy should be happy being who he is and behaving the way he does. Not trying to slot into a new box.

We had snails too, Arnold- they're great pets for small children, just liberate them when you go on holiday and collect some new ones when you return or if any expire. It's quite easy to set up a habitat for them. I can't imagine why anyone shells out(sorry) for those giant African ones.

We had a 'pregnant' woodlouse with tiny babies once too.

@BarbariansMum oooh a zoologist? That sounds really interesting! I hope you get to work with interesting creatures (not aardvarks or sloths).

Thank you to whoever's posted the link!!

I've just listened and I too was disturbed how little the head teacher seemed to know. He sounded unprepared next to stephanie who did well to get in how serious the non binary identity can be and what it can lead to. I dont think the head had realised that..

I'm.also concerned about all this being done in public.

Between puberty blockers and being paraded on TV or radio or media as something special they constantly make it impossible for kids to every change their minds.

Why is this?

Why does it have to be so public. Its deliberately manipulative.

Haha @LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD the thing about being a zoologist is that you think all sorts of animals are interesting. These days I mostly do ants, amphibians and reptiles and I think they're fascinating. An aardvark would be totally awesome but I dont think my wood ants would agree.

Bats? What about bats??

These questions about bats are nothing but whatabattery.

Nope just curious. Genuinely.

Dog just got it! Arf 🦇