Transpeople and Future archeology

[doradoo]

I don't know if this has been discussed here already, but what is the trans stance on how their remains would be classified in anthropological/archeological terms. As I understand it men and women are skeletally different, so how would say a transwoman be identifiable from their remains and how would they square that circle in terms of not being identified as the male they were?

Say in a future excavation of a graveyard where documentation needs to be made, would it be assumed that a mistake had been made, and the wrong person buried in a grave — would there then need to be investigations about who was where? I've clearly been watching too many crime shows but wondered what the trans stance on this would be.

Neuro that would probably do the trick.

Unless coercively assigned to the wrong pot.

Well, it's a real can of worms ;-)

LadyC.

The attempts to retrospectively 'trans' women who dared to step outside the confines of gender roles annoys me considerably - with no evidence of anything other than gender nonconformity of some sort. (Or, apparently from upthread, just being a good writer.)

OTOH, a couple of days ago I happened to be looking at a Roman statue of a figure in female garb - Caligula. Funnily enough the trans community don't seem particularly keen to claim him, or Nero even though as cross-dressers they'd fit under the stonewall umbrella.

A few fun facts here on these and other historical figures.

erenow.net/ancient/thejoyofsexus/40.php

I read something a while back about older trans people with dementia, it was heartbreaking tbh. There was someone who had transitioned MTF and had all the surgery, but now had no memory of it and remembered themselves as a boy/man as they had been in their earlier life - but then was being horribly distressed and confused to discover (over and over, due to having no short-term memory) what had happened to their body

Of course this is a huge challenge to the "I've always been a woman really", "born that way", "knew since I was 4"-type narratives...

Presumably if anyone felt worried at the thought of posthumously being identified by their biological sex, they'd choose cremation.

ahagwearsapointybonnet that's really sad. :( What a terrible loop to be stuck in, not knowing what happened to your body and having to be regularly reminded about it.

Or to have a well-meaning (I'm sure) carer insisting that you want to be called Doris and wear women's clothes when you see a male body and have memories of a male childhood (possibly even marriage and kids).

It's a minefield.

A team of Italian scientists has shown that eight specific measurements of cremated remains, such as the length or width of certain intact bones, can reveal an individual's sex, even after thousands of years underground.

There is a method for identifying sex after cremation that is thought to be as effective as whole skeletal analysis.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/archaeologists-find-new-way-determine-sex-cremated-individuals/

Well, alzheimers uk has advice on how to handle people who transitioned and then forgot.

You know when you are just mentally stopped in your tracks? Well that sentence just did that to me.

"Buried in the wrong body." It's like a tabloid headline.

The dementia thing did that to me too, Antibles.

It's mind boggling. Why are we entertaining the notion that gender differences are innate, when people forget? How distressing must it be to wonder where your cock is? Horrific.

Even if they don't have surgery - how on earth do we manage these people? If they have a GRC they are legally the opposite sex, to use thier sex based pronouns or clothing or original name would be a hate incident/crime - even if it causes the person confusion and distress? What if the family have adjusted to the person's new gender identity - and then have to go all through it again? It's going to be a minefield.

We can't be that many years off this being a real problem.

We can't be that many years off this being a real problem.

It evidently is already a real problem for some unfortunate individuals. Dementia (and other forms of confusion) are bloody awful anyway but this - affecting, ironically, the sufferer's own identity - is appallingly sad.

www.alzheimers.org.uk/news/2019-07-14/new-research-shows-increased-risk-cognitive-decline-lgbt-community-alzheimers

Looks like cognitive impairment could become an issue. I wonder how those who have never experienced puberty will fare?

Agree, Errol - but, once the numbers increase then the trans community are going to have to face some hard truths.

And the medics who have done it to them.

It's a massive experiment.

That link is worrying Wrath but I wish the research was clearer and they did not lump all LGBT people together. Are (female) lesbians really at greater risk of dementia?

Thingy
Yes I noticed that they said LGBT - everybody together.

I can't think of any reason why lesbians are more likely to get alzheimers.

The research data was based on self identification which as we all know includes lesbians who aren't really female.

Care for elderly people with cognitive impairment deals with and centres on the here and now. If a male patient with dementia for instance had forgotten that he had socially transitioned and was getting agitated or upset at being dressed in feminine clothing and being addressed by a female name, those caring for him would do everything they could to minimise distress. Which means dressing in more masculine clothes, using his original name.

If relatives objected, carers would first attempt to explain and if that didn't work they would stress that the wellbeing of the patient was paramount, not identity issues.

There is often conflict in the carers-patient-relatives relationship, it's perfectly normal and so carers will develop new policies around this issue that focuses on the needs of the patient.

My mother has been managing elderly care companies for decades and although this particular problem hasn't yet come up, they recently had a case of a porn-addicted man with dementia in the daycare centre. Staff managed that deftly and with respect for all involved, including the patient.

they recently had a case of a porn-addicted man with dementia in the daycare centre. Staff managed that deftly and with respect for all involved, including the patient
They provided the man with porn? So had to wait for him to wank off etc before providing his other care?

Sorry slight tangent but do they provide for other addictions?

Charlie - yes of course, I have no doubt that's what's happening now to manage these people with care and dignity - but, once the TRA get wind of it they'll whip up hysteria about staff dead naming and misgendering and gate keeping access to the gold lame handbags.

It's the clash between what the legislation says we must do and what is needed to be done at the time that will cause the problem. By providing good care the staff could be accused of committing a hate crime.

"were you providing person-led, compassionate care by dressing the resident in their choice of clothing and addressing them by their dead name?"
"Yes"
"Bigot"

It's going to get very, very messy.

If a male patient with dementia for instance had forgotten that he had socially transitioned and was getting agitated

I'm sure the case I read about* was of a man who had surgically transitioned and was horrified that his penis was missing. I'm sure the staff did everything they could to lessen his distress but there are some things that can't be fixed and he had to go through this distress over and over, day after day.

*damned if I can remember where or find it though

Qcng - people with dementia are adults and have adult urges. So, yes, sexuality and expressions of adult urges is a thing that should be accommodated in elder care.

Probably not providing porn though, more ensuring they masturbating in private and encouraging social norms in public.

There's been a couple of tricky cases where a wife is in care with dementia and has been found having sex with her husband - how do we determine consent in a person without capacity?

However, that's getting off topic.