Transpeople and Future archeology

[doradoo]

I don't know if this has been discussed here already, but what is the trans stance on how their remains would be classified in anthropological/archeological terms. As I understand it men and women are skeletally different, so how would say a transwoman be identifiable from their remains and how would they square that circle in terms of not being identified as the male they were?

Say in a future excavation of a graveyard where documentation needs to be made, would it be assumed that a mistake had been made, and the wrong person buried in a grave — would there then need to be investigations about who was where? I've clearly been watching too many crime shows but wondered what the trans stance on this would be.

On the flip side, I wonder if anyone with dementia has found themselves experiencing 'gender' dysphoria that wasn't there before?

Possibly. Because - sadly I have seen it - your personality and character can really really change when you have dementia. Bastard disease.

It would likely present with very specific behavioural patterns.
I would imagine these would be mentioned somewhere in the textbooks.
But I am struggling to think what behaviour patterns would be relevant.

The elderly brain is not awash with testosterone or estrogen.

I'd would be wary if I had a relative in that situation who had, say, presented as a woman in their hayday but with dementia didn't recall this as their behaviour - would a carer say 'she/her' and select 'female' clothes for them/offer to have their nails done etc? How would that make someone feel when they are confused/agitated anyway? If they had had a chat before getting worse and decided that they wanted to 'remain female' how awful would it be for all involved to continue this?

Yes I know 'common sense' should prevail - but Im not seeing tonnes of this in this area.

As someone who has a degree in archaeology I have thought for some time that the subject highlights it actually isn't possible to change sex, just live your life in a chosen gender.
The dna and skeletal remains won't lie for anyone.

Has anyone told Dr Alice?

We have so far established,

Skeletal and dna evidence of sex differences remain.

The artifacts surrounding them may confuse things temporarily.

That would make a great project for schools

I guess Boudica must have been a transman then. Oh wait, she wasn't, as there was no concept of such a thing prior to the 20th century

You could say the same for 'gay.' Ancient Greeks were homosexula pederasts who got maried and had kids

False analogy. You can't tell if someone was gay or not from their skeleton or DNA. No one cares about your sexuality after you're dead, no one cares about your "gender identity" either because it's not something you can physically see.

Boudica was not doped up on doses of testosterone because that wasn't possible, and most likely wasn't pretending to be a man.

Boudica has given an interesting insight into how some women have been able to live in the past.

Trans activists have already transed the remains of gender nonconforming men and women. That is, if they are buried with “opposite sex” items they must be trans.

It all will come down to stereotype, of course. Makes me absolutely furious as they are implying not liking girly shit means an archeologist should assume I’m a man.

Dr Alice wants you to forget she based her whole career on sexing skeletons. I wonder if she’s apologised for assuming their gender ? 🙄

I imagine knitting needles found near skeletons might suggest it was a female.

Sexing skeleton from burials and determining their status and role is fascinating.
If there's enough skeleton or DNA it's usually possible to be certain.
The role is more difficult. People are always keen to prove (or disprove) if there were warrior women. Some men don't seem to be able to accept it and some women seem very eager to prove it.
It's not always clear cut which is what makes it fascinating. There was a case of female skeletons found in a British Celtic fort, but the women were Anglo Saxon by DNA.
Who knows why - theories are either nuns, prostitutes or warriors.

In transwomen, if they have had facial surgery then you might be able to see evidence of the surgery on the skull and jaw, where noses / eyebrow ridges / chins have been softened.

There may be evidence of osteoporosis due to the hormones taken, however this would not be conclusive as men also suffer from osteoporosis, albeit at a lower rate.

In transmen, I think the surgery largely involves soft tissue and therefore is unlikely to leave an archaeological footprint.

The above would also depend on the age of transition. If an individual is mature when they start their transition, then their skeleton is likely to be very obviously their biological sex (physical alterations of their skeleton through surgery notwithstanding).

If they took puberty blockers or began taking hormones at an adolescent age, then the skeletons may be more difficult to sex as the development of their natal sexes secondary sexual characteristics will be muted, and those of their intended sex emphasised. I.e. a transwoman who begins transitioning at or near puberty may have wider hips and a more gracile skull than if they began transitioning in their 20s or 30s, when their secondary sexual characteristics are locked in.

Of course in all cases the remains of surgical implants may be preserved, depending on the type of implant.

I'm an (ex) archaeologist, and this is what I would be looking for if you asked me to determine whether a skeleton was male or female and whether they were trans. However I'm not an osteo expert, I've just seen a lot of bones!

In my opinion, if a male bodied skeleton is found in a grave marked "Jennifer Caitlyn Munroe"

Explain how this works if you are a girl called James (yep that is the latest rage with celebs) or Charlie. Or you have more gender neutral Sam or Alex?

I've been worried since the failed Turkish coup but this thread says a lot too.

Jasmine Mujanovic @jasminmuj
I've been thinking all day about the now almost entirely forgotten assassination of the Russian Amb. to Turkey in 2016. Even at the time, it felt very strongly to me like a moment of great unraveling, the loudest shriek in what was already a period of cacophonous history.

This was Dec. 2016 - after Brexit, after the Trump elxn. To many it was a weird footnote in an already long, cruel, and brutal war in Syria. But it weighed on me like some omen. It was Yeats; "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world".

Maybe it's bc as a Bosnian events at the supposed "periphery" have always seemed as important, maybe even more important to me than the grand machinations at the "center"; likely bc my people, my family too have died and suffered in "obscure", misunderstood lands like Syria.

The onset of Turkey's assault on the Kurds in NE Syria today has occupied more of the collective attn in the West, and rightly so. Many are now warning, brooding, hinting at how severe, how cataclysmic all of this will likely become; more death, more destruction, more exile.

I'm not supposed to say this as a "social scientist" but it all feels so inevitable now, the terrible, suffocating weight of the coming butchery. The U.S., EU, the West, the international community have had nearly a decade to commit to a real policy for Syria. We chose not to.

Syria is the greatest moral, ethical, & political catastrophe of the 21st century. It will shame & stain our entire generation. And it should. This is not merely a betrayal of the Kurds, or of the Syrian civilians; it is a betrayal of humanity itself, of civilization.

Scholars will debate the tactics, the grand strategies, what the wise men in the important capitals knew, thought, anticipated, bargained for. It will be hard to capture the harrowing sorrow and the shame of it all though. This is history as a great, collective sin. /xxx

Sorry wrong thread

As another ex archaeologist (really ex)
Of course in all cases the remains of surgical implants may be preserved, depending on the type of implant.
This I thought might be the easiest way to guess at what had been going on.
The contrast between the male skeleton and the usually female implants.

Someone is having fun with this thread and reckons it's already happened; a misgendered skeleton was found to be female thought DNA (again proving the bio sex point but hey ho.)

Someone didn't read very carefully the bit where they looked again at the pelvis and realised it looked female. So did a DNA check to be sure.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/09/viking-warrior-woman-archaeology-spd/

This is a real case, and may not be directly relevant as Pulaski may have been intersex, but it's a case of a 300 year old skeleton of a man being discovered to be female.
Archaeologists clocked the skeleton as female, which was confirmed by DNA.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47842307

Explain how this works if you are a girl called James (yep that is the latest rage with celebs) or Charlie. Or you have more gender neutral Sam or Alex?

Well, if a male skeleton is found and they'd be considered male and if a female skeleton is found they'd be considered female. Right? The epitaph would also read something like "James a beloved daughter and mother / year-year" and will give more information as to whether they are female male or trans or not.

Males calling themselves very feminine names usually means they are trans, isn't it, the epitaph will say "Caitlyn, beloved woman RIP" but ooh male skeleton found! So obviously a Trans woman, (because it's unlikely a wrong body was buried).

I'm sure people digging up graves can work it out, but people finding random skeletons (wtf is this conversation 😂) would find it harder!

(because it's unlikely a wrong body was buried)^

I'm just going to correct myself there, because trans people are born in the wrong body, so a wrong body will have been buried.

Born in the wrong body and then the wrong body is buried.
Tricky.

Might need to look for the soul.
Where's Layla when you need her.

Could be a new career for her if the politics gig goes tits up.

Might need to look for the soul.

Should be in one of the pots knocking around the back of the tomb; pulled out with sharp hook through nose and stuffed into correctly gendered colour coded jar according to identity.