Tavistock CEO reportedly 'shaken' to learn number of Reddit detransitioners and desisters

[GrinitchSpinach]

Interesting tweet by Bob Withers, psychoanalyst, who spoke to Peter Jenkins, CEO of the Tavistock, at the Tavi's Annual General Meeting.

I hope Mr. Jenkins means it when he says he takes these concerns seriously and will look into it further. If you go to his Twitter @PaulJThinks, there are more tweets and screenshots from the meeting about the Tavistock's work in schools.

Shaken? So he should be.

Promising.
twitter.com/BobWithers52/status/1179469575605440513?s=19

I saw that.

Faint hope.

Worth bearing in mind the Health Research Authority said their investigation into the ethics approval to the research by Tavistock into puberty blockers would be concluded “around the end of September”. So can’t let it go the way of the Jess Bradley and just fade away.

Dear god has Peter Jenkins been assuming the ostrich position all these years?

How can the CEO of a gender reassignment clinic be so unaware of the research, the history, the controversy raging around him?

It comes across as wilful ignorance at this point.

Yes Arnold, that's certainly how it appears.

NotBad, I got an email from the HRA saying that their report was completed.

But that it would only be published after they'd followed up with other parties involved in the study. No time frame given for when that will be.

A positive sign that the HRA is saying that in their eyes some follow-up is required though?

One outcome could have been that the HRA published a report on time that effectively exonerates the Tavistock. The HRA has not done that. Therefore there are clearly issues to address.

Ooh! I followed a link or two and came across a poll for people with uteri

Oddly there were quite a few responses!!! I didn't know double uterus syndrome was so prevalent! And then I thought again...

Thanks Popchyk, I agree, sounds like there are explanations being sought.

Anyone else having difficulty connecting to that Eventbrite Detransition event?
Maybe it's innocent. Maybe they've had a pile on?
I've tried accessing via the tweet and also via Eventbrite site.

How can the CEO of a gender reassignment clinic be so unaware of the research, the history, the controversy raging around him?

Of course he isn't.

I imagine he looked "shaken" because this is all becoming so mainstream now that dissenters are openly challenging him at his own board meetings.

Good. I hope he was sufficiently shaken that he's now looking for an escape route. Good luck with that mate, because we've got long memories.

I think it is great that Bob / Robert Withers has raised this issue with Peter Jenkins

However Robert Withers is a fascinating person.

Readers might be interested in an archived page of an event he presented at, which looks very interesting

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20191003132555/www.thesap.org.uk/events/gender-dysphoria-transgendered-states-view-consulting-room-robert-withers/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20191003132555/www.thesap.org.uk/events/gender-dysphoria-transgendered-states-view-consulting-room-robert-withers/

According to the above page Withers co-founded the Rock Clinic in Brighton

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20191003132555/www.thesap.org.uk/events/gender-dysphoria-transgendered-states-view-consulting-room-robert-withers/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20191003132555/www.thesap.org.uk/events/gender-dysphoria-transgendered-states-view-consulting-room-robert-withers/

There are a number of things that concern me about the Rock Clinic

One of them is the use of body psychotherapy and massage as a form of therapeutic intervention

Another is the clinics association with an organsiation called Boarding School Survivors

That link is evident in this page from the Rock Clinic website, complete with link to the Boarding School Survivors website

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190111025813/www.rockclinic.org.uk/specialist-services-brighton/boarding-school-survivors/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190111025813/www.rockclinic.org.uk/specialist-services-brighton/boarding-school-survivors/

The Boarding School Survivors website (archived) is here
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190204225921/www.boardingschoolsurvivors.co.uk/#Boarding%20School%20Survivors" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190204225921/www.boardingschoolsurvivors.co.uk/#Boarding%20School%20Survivors

At the bottom of that page are links to other organisations associated with the BSS website, one of which is the Centre for Gender Psychology, a fascinating organisation.

The founders of the Centre for Gender Psychology are Helena Løvendal and her husband Nick Duffell. They are also both cenrally involved in Boarding School Survivors

They hav run various neo-tantric / plastic shamanism related "therapeutic" events that will be of interestand concern to readers familiar with the naked yoga and cuddle parties thread

There is so much of interest but here is something that regular readers will recognise in terms of red flags

www.helena-lovendal.com/phdi/p1.nsf/supppages/7650?opendocument&part=2

an old "about us" page is also of interest

so, to conclude, I very much appreciate Robert Withers extressing his concerns about over medicalisation of children IDing as trans, however I have extremely serious concerns about his psychotherapy practice, the Rock Clinic, especially in relation to Nick Duffell and Helena Løvendal's neo-tantric and fake shamanic (also racist culturally appropriated) activities.

I would encourage readers to research further and to take very great care when doing so.

It is one of those situations where one rabbit hole leads to another

apologies

that archived "about us" page is here

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20030530145908/www.genderpsychology.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20030530145908/www.genderpsychology.com/

Ben of GNC Centric mentioned that U.K. GICS/GIDS are supposed to provide services for detransitioners on her video with Thomasina and Charlie recently.

Would this be in some policy document somewhere? Because the NHS needs to get it’s shit together ready for the wave of young adults with fucked up endocrine systems that will be banging on their door, and we might be exactly the right people (mothers, lesbians, feminists) to remind these ‘professionals’ that they made this fucking mess and they are obliged to clear it up, too.

Is he seriously saying that there are five thousand detransitioners on Reddit?

As in, people who have had some form of serious medical intervention to mimic the opposite sex, and who now regret it?

Or does Reddit include huge numbers of youngsters who thought they might be a bit different and now realise that everyone is different?

It is a bit alarming when you realize that you can't just hide the cases where things didn't go as planned from the public any more, isn't it, Peter?

Unless he quite literally lives on a desert island and this is the first time he's had internet access in years then he knew.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/detransition-the-elephant-in-the-room-tickets-73966390465

Unless he quite literally lives on a desert island and this is the first time he's had internet access in years then he knew.

Expect that will be it.

However Robert Withers is a fascinating person.

Yeah, my OP should not be taken as an endorsement of Withers, about whom I know little. I hope it doesn't come across that way. I was just glad that someone, anyone, raised this issue at the Tavistock meeting.

Is he seriously saying that there are five thousand detransitioners on Reddit?

That subreddit has 5,000 subscribers. A survey they did about six months ago (not scientific; online self-selecting) showed about half of respondents were detransitioners and half family members/allies/other interested parties. I believe they are planning a new survey soon.

I am not a subscriber and do not participate in that subreddit because I understand it to be intended as a support group for detransitioners, desisters, and those exploring doubts or regrets. However, a glance at the forum reveals the genuine pain many posters are experiencing, with repeated themes of being ill-served and even actively misled by therapists and doctors.

I wish them peace and healing, and give a major side-eye to people who imply or claim outright (as some gender activists do) that they are fake/trolls/gender critical witches posing as detransitioners.

Yeah, my OP should not be taken as an endorsement of Withers, about whom I know little. I hope it doesn't come across that way. I was just glad that someone, anyone, raised this issue at the Tavistock meeting.

Of course

My post was not so much intended to be a criticism of Withers (although I have concerns about his therapy organisation) so much as a post to express extreme caution about IDing people as allies without digging around first

There are usually many layers to thins kind of situaiton

I imagine he looked "shaken" because this is all becoming so mainstream now that dissenters are openly challenging him at his own board meetings.

Exactly. He can't be shaken about the information, people have been telling him all along. Plus their own study results should be an indication.

'Caught out in public without an answer', sounds more plausible.

The Reddit detrans group is full of anguish. Here are two posts which eloquently describe the problems of detransition:

Imagine how many people are too scared to admit they made a mistake? The humiliation has to be overwhelming. I know a lot of them basically gave up one group of people who didn't support their transition in exchange for group that will; the latter will also give them up the instant they say they were wrong. No one wants to willingly "burn that many bridges".

Another member replies:

Right. There are tons who are like "I'm regretting my transition. But almost all my friends are trans or queer, my gf is trans, etc. and I don't want them to stop supporting me"

Not to mention that often it's too difficult or impossible to completely go back, even if a person wants to. E.g. once a man or woman has had bottom or top surgery, their genitals and chest will never be the same. Once a person has been taking blockers and HRT since puberty, their development and bone structure has often been permanently altered.

I've seen so many cases of trans people who are suffering from their transition, but who don't detransition because they feel it's too late to basically restart their lives as adults, after years of the effects.

Prawnofthepatriarchy

The heartbreaking accounts you have posted here could be from anyone who has ever become involved in a religious or personal development cult.

Cults are very easy to join and very difficult to leave and the trans cult is no exception

There was a recent case of a guru (they call them "godmen" in India) who was jailed for vrious criminal activities and who had persuaded many of his followers to castrate themselves in order to achieve enlightenment.

I cannot imagine how awful it must be for anyone who has not only been recruited into a cult but who has ended up mutilated as a result.

Starting life anew must be almost impossible

I hope that the growing detransition movement provides some support and comfort for those wanting out

Exactly. He can't be shaken about the information, people have been telling him all along. Plus their own study results should be an indication.

People sometimes hear things like that, but they don't really believe that they will play out in the worst possible way. I think they assume their intentions are good, we wouldn't let this situation happen. When the scales finally drop from their eyes, they can be really shocked and upset.

I dont regard people 'looking shaken' as much evidence of anything. About once a month I have a sharp bowel pain that causes me to look as if I've been shot in the back for a few seconds. It might have been something like that.

What is important is ongoing action: holding the line in watch and wait, stars and evidence on explorers, desisters, detransitioners, regretters, happy outcomes and people who think it probably would have been ok either way.

Phone!! STATS and evidence