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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SURROGACY CONSULTATION ENDS ON FRIDAY 11 OCTOBER - PLEASE SUBMIT A RESPONSE [Edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

181 replies

howonearthdidwegethere · 01/10/2019 21:33

The Law Commission's consultation on surrogacy ends on 11 October. Please consider submitting a response. Needn't be long:

www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/surrogacy/

If you're not sure how to respond (the main document is 502 pages long!), there are already two great submissions you can draw on:

This one from nia, the VAWG charity run by Karen Ingala Smith:

www.niaendingviolence.org.uk/perch/resources/surrogacy-consultation-response-october-2019.pdf

This one from Nordic Model Now:

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/15/the-law-commissions-surrogacy-consultation-how-to-bamboozle-through-a-dangerous-new-law/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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FannyCann · 11/10/2019 23:17

Links to a couple of the threads I mentioned.

The Rumplestiltskin Law
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3606313-The-Rumplestiltskin-Law

The illegitimacy of the ‘Rumplestiltskin’ Surrogacy consultation
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultation

Cattenberg · 11/10/2019 23:50

FannyCann, I did email them a few comments this afternoon. I hadn’t realised before that I could do that.

I’ve long thought that the surrogacy laws in California sounded horrendous and I strongly disagree with Dustin Lance Black’s campaign to make UK surrogacy law closer to California’s. We’re about to take a significant step closer to the nightmarish surrogacy contracts that Jennifer Lahl writes about, if certain vested interests get their way.

FannyCann · 12/10/2019 00:11

Cattenberg Dustin appears to have made it his mission to bring California to the UK. We will resist!

Press release from Nordic Model Now regarding the letter. Over 50 organisations and 800 individual signatures.

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/10/11/press-release-over-50-organisations-sign-open-letter-condemning-the-law-commissioners-surrogacy-consultation/

From the press release:

One woman who signed the letter left a comment saying, “I have been a surrogate and it has destroyed my life.” This illustrates the extreme risks involved. Another woman got in touch to say:
“I was an unpaid altruistic surrogate and it was an absolutely horrific experience that resulted in me needing treatment for PTSD. I am also left with permanent birth injuries. I was abandoned by the intended parents who just used me up and discarded me after the traumatic birth.
I also think often of the poor, young female student in Eastern Europe who also had to endure egg harvesting and the life-long consequences of that, to pay for her studies. There is very little that is ‘ethical’ about surrogacy.
I am now completely against ALL surrogacy, whether commercial (which is completely immoral in my view), but also altruistic unpaid surrogacy. The potential for abuse is too great. Women should not be encouraged to endanger their emotional and physical health and safety for other people’s ‘need’ to have babies. Women should not be encouraged to put ourselves second, and to risk our lives for other people.”

FannyCann · 12/10/2019 07:49

I have been enjoying the podcasts that Jennifer Lahl is realising. The first was a bit of background information. The second discussed resistance to proposals to allow commercial surrogacy in New York and the push back that scuppered the bill. I haven't had a chance to listen to the latest yet.

https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/venusrising/episodes/2019-10-10T2200000-0700

"You can now find Venus Rising on your favorite streaming platform! That’s right, you can listen to episodes of Venus Rising on Spotifyy, Google Playy, Podomaticc, and even iTuness!!! The podcast features chats about all things fertility, infertility and women’s reproductive health."

yulet · 12/10/2019 08:22

I'm fervently anti-surrogacy because it creates needless issues for the baby, and also isn't good for women.

I'm ALSO infertile and childless, and spent years trying and grew suicidal with it all.

Please stop with the "you don't know what its like" comments.

Some of us definitely do, and those who don't have a right (and possibly obligation) to speak up anyway. That's part of living in a society.

It's not about you and your pain / me and my pain.

No one is owed a newborn.

ChattyLion · 12/10/2019 08:58

The Mirror has an interesting interview with a surrogate who describes doing this as an ‘addiction.‘

Is there any actual psychological phenomenon associated with this? (genuine question). Is there a point when anyone says no, you’re not doing this for psychologically healthy reasons? Addictive or compulsive behaviour in a literal sense can make people overlook or take risks they would normally avoid, for example.

It seems to be a theme in media interviews with surrogate women, quoting them saying they want to do it again and again. (Which would not be emotionally or physically safe obviously)

‘Other surrogates I spoke to said that I would want to do it again, and I do, it's an addiction.’

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-who-gave-birth-niece-20525535.amp

ChattyLion · 12/10/2019 08:59

yulet so sorry. Flowers

OhHolyJesus · 12/10/2019 09:15

Thank you for sharing that Yulet ThanksThanksThanks

I think Mother Radford has talked about her love for being pregnant but I would be interested to know if the any addictive joy of being a surrogate comes from the way the IPs are so grateful and if the surrogate is treated well, if it comes from feeling special and held up on a pedestal for such a supposed 'selfless' act. There should be some research into this if there isn't already.

On a related side note I've googled children of surrogates to see if there are any support groups or help for adults born into surrogate arrangements and I can't find any - I think that says something (or it says something about my research skills on a Saturday morning!)

Also, fantastic news Fanny on the signatures. What an incredible thing we have done these last few weeks, women are truly amazing!

OrchidInTheSun · 12/10/2019 09:20

Thank your @FannyCann and all the other women who have posted these threads. I signed the letter and responded to the consultation. I did make the point that it was very poorly designed, to a degree that felt almost deliberate.

Funny how so many surrogates come on these threads who are highly qualified but yet all have dreadful spag...

FannyCann · 12/10/2019 10:09

Thank you yulet

I may be wrong, (and I really hope I'm not being tactless here) but I think it is probably even harder to cope with infertility and childlessness these days than for previous generations. From time to time I meet older people through work, who will quietly say they never had children and sometimes express sadness.
They lived in a time when children either came along or didn't and whilst I dare say some of them may have inwardly raged at the injustice, at being unmentioned and forgotten or openly pitied in a demeaning way they at least never had to deal with being offered false hope.

I suspect that today, with so much more knowledge of infertility, so many medical options offering hope, support groups that might encourage one to keep on trying new options, and of course growing numbers of celebrities choosing surrogacy and promoting it as just one of those options I feel it must be much harder to swallow that bitter pill.

I do believe that infertility clinics offer false hope to some people who they know are very unlikely to succeed in the end, IVF still has quite a low success rate. (I'm not quoting any figures as even looking through HFEA stats it is hard to be sure as figures tend to be quoted in terms of success per ivf round , some people may have many rounds of treatment with no end positive result, others are more lucky.).

To stand by your principles and to talk about your pain must be an ongoing challenge. 💐

littlecabbage · 12/10/2019 10:15

Yulet, sorry to hear of your experience with infertility. I hope you are in a better place now. And thank you for speaking out - both for sharing your experience, and for agreeing that just because someone has their own children, they still have the right to advocate for children and other women. We all should speak up when we see potential harm to children and other women.

FannyCann and everyone else - thank you for all your diligent work. Please keep us updated with anything you hear further on this.

OhHolyJesus, I think your comments about how surrogacy feels for the birth mother are very insightful. I remember with my pregnancies, being treated with such care and respect by medical staff at all my appointments etc. It feels very exciting to have a baby on the way, and those feelings (for me) were amplified by the excitement and interest shown by other people. I think that could definitely be addictive for some women, similar to a Munchausen's-type syndrome.

Once a surrogate mother has given birth, all that attention and care is transferred to the baby, which doesn't then stay with them. So I can see how it could become addictive to have another.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 12/10/2019 14:46

Yulet thank you for commenting, I do think it's important to realise that not all women who suffer infertility are automatically pro-surrogacy. I hope you are in a better place now. I found the book 'the next happy' by Tracy Cleantis (who herself is childless not by choice) very helpful to me to find acceptance about my infertility when i was going through that struggle myself.

I do believe that infertility clinics offer false hope to some people who they know are very unlikely to succeed in the end, IVF still has quite a low success rate.

My personal experience is very much that this is true. I spent over 10 years struggling with infertility and trying for a child through IVF and was never successful despite producing many many "good quality" embryos all of which we used. I strongly believe that the fertility industry helped encourage in me an unhealthy obsession for a child which impacted badly on my mental health, my relationships, my career and my finances (which perhaps was the point for them? They certainly got a lot of my money).

Whilst being treated by the fertility industry, everything everyone said to me depicted a child as the end point, the result, the success and there was a very blinkered approach. The truth is having a child is the start, and if you don't start from a good place then I think there can be so many problems for parents and, more importantly, the children.

Ultimately after being told I couldn't have children naturally I did have children naturally -after finally finding acceptance that I wouldn't. Yes I am that cliche of giving up and getting pregnant, it's profoundly irritating when you're trying and I apologise to any women reading this who are in that place.

But the fact is that those 10 plus years mean that my children aren't as well off as they'd otherwise be - they have a mother with poor health caused at least in part by fertility treatments and their parents are much poorer than they would otherwise be. I have to live with the fact that my choices have disadvantaged them as well as me. I don't think I made the right choices in that period of my life.

So, whilst my opposition to surrogacy is mostly out of concern for the children and that women may be exploited (and the wider legal ramifications for women's and children's rights) I do also think that the intended parents may actually find that their decisions may ultimately cause them misery too.

HugTrees · 12/10/2019 14:56

Ineedacupofteadesperately

You say that surrogacy isn’t altruistic and everyone makes money including the lawyers from surrogacy. In the UK that doesn’t happen. Say my sister is a TS surrogacy for me, no clinics involved and no lawyers. You pay for the parental order yourself. There is currently nothing to include a lawyer on. If it’s GS and you use a clinic, then of course someone will make a profit as people have to run a business, even the milkman wants to make a profit to earn a living, that’s how he works works.

Fanny people have said you are a midwife. I hope whenever you get a surrogacy pregnancy come in that you make your views known and excuse yourself from looking after the surrogate and the baby and it’s parents.

The surrogacy journey I have known, the baby was breast fed, and had more skin to skin for the first weeks of its life than any other baby I’ve known. They grow up knwkknf where thy came from and they were chosen to be born and made with love. Completely different from adoption where the child doesn’t feel wanted/was neglected etc

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 12/10/2019 15:04

Yes and a milkman would be very unlikely to tell you he thought you were lactose intolerant and shouldn't buy milk, even if you obviously were, because he needs business.

So, fertility clinics cannot be impartial and are likely to do things that encourage more business. That's the point. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts and want to make a profit. Which creates pressure. As I've written above, I experienced that pressure to undertake more treatments and spend more when I was having IVF. It wasn't in my best interests.

HugTrees · 12/10/2019 15:08

And I am not pro everything surrogacy. I don’t agree with huge expenses or the COTs model where basically the richest IPs are chosen by a surrogate and then they feel obliged to go with that person.

I disagree with the surrogates out there doing it for money who only let people attend the scan once and not the birth. I think the parents having parental rights from birth is a good thing, but I don’t ever think the IPs can have a say on the pregnancy or what happens during pregnancy/birth etc. I think that things like termination and tests and how an ideal labour would go all have to be discussed in a friendship first.
I prefer the UK independent surrogacy world where people match through friendships. Where people continue to meet up afterwards. I like British altruistic surrogacy and not the American one where I’ve seen an acquaintance be a surrogate and have no contact after the birth. I’ve also seen IPs held to random, literally for money to have the parental order signed. And for other costs like cars etc during the pregnancy to get their baby back at the birth. So it does both ways and laws will bring that safety for all parties.

FannyCann · 13/10/2019 10:14

@HugTrees I was a midwife for twenty years but am no longer on the register and work in another area of the NHS. I am sure, however, that I could manage to work professionally if presented with a surrogate mother to care for. That would mean ensuring her needs and safety and welfare were the focus of my care, as well as making sure I was working within the law and hospital guidelines.

Here is a section from the WPUK letter regarding midwifery care:

Even without the risk of health complications for the surrogate mother or the baby, the experience of being pregnant and giving birth is often challenging and frightening. A relationship of trust between the pregnant woman and the midwife is crucial. In relation to Paragraph 17.76 of the consultation document, it should be noted that midwives are trained to identify not only health issues but also mental health issues, and social issues such as poor quality housing, poverty and lack of nutrition, domestic violence, and trafficking throughout the care pathway.
As much as intended parents may wish to be involved in antenatal appointments, scans, and the actual birth (indeed, in some cases the surrogate may want this too), the midwife’s relationship and primary concern must be with her patient, the surrogate mother. This is an important opportunity for midwives to identify risk factors or safeguarding issues, including the possibility of coercion or undue pressure being placed on the surrogate mother by the intended parents.
WHO guidelines, which have been adopted by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, state that “all care settings must protect and promote women’s privacy and dignity, respecting their human rights.[10]”
It is not uncommon for women to change their mind about who they wish to have present at the birth once they are in labour. The wishes of the intended parents should carry no more weight than the wishes of a partner or the surrogate’s parents who may have planned to be present but who the surrogate may decide she does not want to be present once she is in labour.
There are many circumstances in which it would be undesirable for the intended parents to be present when the surrogate mother is attending healthcare appointments. For instance, in cases where complications may mean there is a risk to the mother’s health or life if she continues with the pregnancy. For instance, it is not difficult to imagine a scenario where the mother may find it difficult to make choices which prioritise her own health and wellbeing if the intended parents are in the room with her, even if they do not actively put pressure on her to prioritise the welfare of the fetus. Or in a scenario where a scan reveals a fetal anomaly, the pregnant woman may feel unduly pressured to conform to the intended parents’ wishes regarding continuing or terminating the pregnancy if they are present in the room when the scan takes place.
At all times it should be remembered that the patient in this context is the surrogate mother and it is her relationship with healthcare professionals and her human rights, dignity, and bodily autonomy which are at stake. The wishes and desires of the intended parents are no more than wishes and desires. They must not take precedence over the wishes and desires of the pregnant woman or the professional requirements of the healthcare professionals charged with caring for her.

As it says, the wishes and desires of the intended parents are no more than wishes and desires. This contrasts with complaints from intended parents, which the law commissioners appear to support, such as that staff would not allow the baby to be discharged from hospital independently from the surrogate mother. The surrogate mother is also the legal mother and safeguarding and the law would mean that no, a couple waving their contract which is unenforceable and meaningless in law, do not get to announce themselves parents of a newborn and remove it from hospital.

SURROGACY CONSULTATION ENDS ON FRIDAY 11 OCTOBER - PLEASE SUBMIT A RESPONSE [Edited by MNHQ at OP's request]
redchocolatebutton · 13/10/2019 10:21

I really appreciate that wpuk uses 'surrogate mother' and not just 'surrogate' or 'carrier'

FannyCann · 13/10/2019 10:27

The letter from EVAW highlighted another area that has been scantily addressed - breakdown in arrangements where the intended parents refuse to take the baby.

"There are also important questions to be addressed about breakdown of arrangements; what if the commissioners decide the baby (product) is for some reason not what they hoped for. This is dealt with very scantly in the consultation ‘.... It ensures that she can never be required to take legal responsibility for the child, and that the intended parents can never “reject” the child. If the intended parents do not want, or are not able, to care for the child – perhaps because of a breakdown in their own relationship, or because the baby is born severely disabled – then the responsibility lies with them as legal parents to make arrangements. For example, it would be a decision for the intended parents to give up the child for adoption. This does have the effect that the care system may have to step in to look after the child, should the intended parents refuse to fulfil their responsibilities, but we do not see this as any different to the situation where natural parents abandon, or are unable to care for, a child."

I have read (no statistics but am inclined to believe it is true) that it is more frequent for commissioning parents to renege on the agreement and refuse to take the baby - marital breakdown being the commonest reason - than the other way around, the surrogate mother deciding to keep the baby.
Hey ho. The care services can step in and put it up for adoption, no different to when natural parents abandon the baby.

As it happens I have experience of that situation, when a baby was born with Down's syndrome (back before the widespread introduction of prenatal testing) and the father gave his wife an ultimatum choose him or the baby. So she went home with her husband and the baby was left on the ward to be cared for by us until arrangements were made. He was with us for a little while (and much loved by all the staff) and the wife sneaked in several times to visit him and bring small gifts of clothes and cuddly toys. I often wonder how long that marriage lasted.

Anyway I just wanted to point out how, the more one digs and thinks of possible scenarios, the more I realise what massive implications these proposals have, not just for women and children, but for the NHS, midwifery care, social services and more, who are blithely expected to enthusiastically go along with it all and pick up the pieces where it goes wrong.

FannyCann · 13/10/2019 10:31

redchocolatebutton. I think most of the organisations responding have done the same, to assert that the surrogate mother is the mother and to avoid erasing the woman who is giving birth to the baby. I do the same, although I can't guarantee never to have missed the extra word when typing at speed.

FannyCann · 13/10/2019 10:40

Links to four important letters submitted to the Law Commission by women's organisations.
There are some very interesting comments from individuals signing on the Nordic Model Now letter at the end.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/10/11/open-letter-to-the-uk-and-scottish-law-commissioners-about-the-surrogacy-consultation//_

http://www.niaendingviolence.org.uk/perch/resources/surrogacy-consultation-response-october-2019.pdff_

womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/08/wpuk-submission-to-law-commission-consultation-on-surrogacy-reform/

www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Letter-on-Surrogacy-.pdf

I have heard back rom the lovely lady at NMN regarding statistics.

"Just for interest, here are the final figures:

Hits on the 'How to' page on the website (excluding the fast loading pages that Twitter serves up on a mobile phone): 4897
Downloads of the Word document: 1013
Downloads of the PDF document (excludes just viewing it in the browser): 405

Of course, not all the downloads will have translated into submissions to the consultation, but the last minute rush makes me think several hundred at least will have. The signatures on the open letter were gratifying - we only had it open for three and a half days and got nearly 800 individuals - which is a record for any our open letters. At least two women signed it who have been 'surrogate' mothers and had a terrible experience - I am in touch with one, who is lovely. You may be interested in some of the comments to the letter - e.g. one from Israel - you can see it on the website.....

I think it's important that we continue to raise awareness because that will put pressure on the Law Commissioners etc to not just go ahead with the proposals. So I don't think it's over."

HugTrees · 13/10/2019 18:50

I agree that the surrogate should be allowed to attend her antenatal appointments etc herself. With the IPs coming in half way through if they all want it.
Surely a journey where the IPs want uk be involves as possible is more preferable than a surrogate who just takes money from IPs who don’t want any contact until the birth? That’s not the kind of surrogacy I support but I wholeheartedly support the journeys of life and friendship I have seen. People going through the pregnancy together. But nothing I can say will change anyone’s minds here. I just see the happy families and babies and surrogates with new life long relatives.
Yes there are wealthy IPs who take advantage of poorer surrogates, but that’s where having a law in place would help surely?
And why can’t the baby be discharged with it’s parents? The surrogate doesn’t want to have any responsibility for a baby that isn’t hers and she has never seen as hers.

Only a few people can be a surrogate. Most of my friendship group said they couldn’t due to the bond. A few people say they can feel different so they can carry others babies. That doesn’t make them wrong and it doesn’t make you wrong that you can to imagine anyone else being able to seperate that.
The friends journey I watched was truely truely lovely and that’s the experience I have.

redchocolatebutton · 13/10/2019 18:54

And why can’t the baby be discharged with it’s parents?

because the surrogate mother is the legal parent.

OrchidInTheSun · 13/10/2019 23:51

HugTrees - I asked this on another surrogacy thread but no one could answer. Maybe you can.

If the surrogate is not the mother, does than mean that women who use donor eggs to have babies are not the mother? Is the donor the mother?

So what does the word mother actually mean? In surrogacy, is it the woman who has paid for the baby? Surely then she is the buyer, not the mother?

HugTrees · 14/10/2019 23:39

Orchard. That’s exactly it, current surrogacy laws are to protect people going through IVF, so people who have a double donation pregnancy are seen as the parents in the eyes of the law.
Surrogacy law needs to change so that parents go on the birth certificate from birth. You can talk all you like about people paying for babies, the journey I have seen with family members didn’t include money. The terminology for surrogacy is going to be different to IVF to adoption.
The mother is the person who is raising that child, just like in adoption. But use whatever terminology you feel happy with about payments and people buying children if it helps.

FannyCann · 15/10/2019 00:06

No Hugtrees You can't have one law for one and a different law for the other.

Also, as I said before, if the commissioning parents buyers are the legal parents in law, before the baby is even born, this dramatically changes the power dynamic with significant implications for antenatal and intrapartum care. The only person who should be making decisions about her pregnancy is the pregnant woman, otherwise known as the mother. It is her body and health that is at stake. You should take a look at some of the American style contracts. You can't have some one turning up to antenatal clinic or the labour ward waving a contract and demanding rights to determine the plan of care.

Also it contravenes the recommendations of the United Nations Special Rapporteur. Recommendations which have been made for the protection of the surrogate mother.