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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SURROGACY CONSULTATION ENDS ON FRIDAY 11 OCTOBER - PLEASE SUBMIT A RESPONSE [Edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

181 replies

howonearthdidwegethere · 01/10/2019 21:33

The Law Commission's consultation on surrogacy ends on 11 October. Please consider submitting a response. Needn't be long:

www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/surrogacy/

If you're not sure how to respond (the main document is 502 pages long!), there are already two great submissions you can draw on:

This one from nia, the VAWG charity run by Karen Ingala Smith:

www.niaendingviolence.org.uk/perch/resources/surrogacy-consultation-response-october-2019.pdf

This one from Nordic Model Now:

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/15/the-law-commissions-surrogacy-consultation-how-to-bamboozle-through-a-dangerous-new-law/

OP posts:
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OhHolyJesus · 11/10/2019 11:44

I don't think this will work for a moment but thought I'd post it anyway. What kind of crazy people are going to try and do this?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/oct/08/artificial-womb-dutch-researchers-given-29m-to-develop-prototype?CMP=sharebtnn_fb

littlecabbage · 11/10/2019 12:46

Look at how many other European countries have a complete ban on surrogacy. We should be leading the way here, not attempting to worsen the problem.

www.euronews.com/2018/09/13/where-in-europe-is-surrogacy-legal

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 11/10/2019 13:24

little the map is very interesting: a massive red area and a few patches of green, and among the red are those countries which most would say have best quality of life. Why on earth, given that map does the consultation start from a point of 'this is inevitable': most European countries would disagree. Plus they ignored major stakeholders such as women and medical professionals. The word that keeps springing into my mind about the consultation is 'corrupt'.

JaneR0chester · 11/10/2019 13:59

Just submitted my views, thanks to the link to objectnow.com and their model answers. I used those as well as adding a few choice words of my own.

Only took me 20 mins, please add your views.

littlecabbage · 11/10/2019 14:05

I have sent the following email to the law commission:

Dear Surrogacy Team,

I am writing to express my deep concern at the proposals to reform the current UK surrogacy laws. Many European countries have a total ban on surrogacy, and for extremely important reasons. These countries include Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Norway, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland. The UK should be proposing to join these countries in a total ban on surrogacy, not to further facilitate it.

I believe that all forms of surrogacy should be banned in the UK for the following reasons:

  1. A human being is not a commodity to be bought and sold, or gifted. Nobody should have the right to deliberately create a baby with the intention to immediately separate it from its birth mother. This is relevant whether the baby is genetically related to the birth mother, or conceived with a donor egg. There is much evidence to show that separating an infant from its birth mother causes neurobiological vulnerabilities into adulthood. Nobody has the right to inflict that kind of psychological trauma upon another human being. Such psychological difficulties are of course seen in adopted children, but adoptions only occur where it is not safe for a child to remain with its birth mother. Creating a child in order to separate it from its mother at birth, is a form of abuse.

  2. Surrogacy is a means of exploitation of impoverished and/or vulnerable women. If commercialised, it will be a means by which wealthy commissioners (“intended parents”) have financial power over poorer women. Women in difficult social situations will inevitably see surrogacy as a way to improve their situation by earning money, but it is not acceptable for anybody to put these women’s mental and physical health (and even lives) at risk by paying them to carry and birth a baby for somebody else. There is also a risk that, however closely regulated, surrogacy could cause women to be coerced or forced into surrogacy by abusive partners or family members, for financial gain.

  3. The long term health risks to the birth mother cannot be dismissed. A surrogate mother who has not previously been pregnant or given birth, will not have a full understanding of what she is consenting to when signing a contract to carry a child, give birth to it, and them give it away. Physically, pregnancy and childbirth take their toll upon a woman’s body, and in many cases leave the woman with permanent medical conditions. These include urinary incontinence, faecal incontinence, pelvic organ prolapse, obstetric fistula, nerve damage and gestational diabetes, to name but a few.

Emotionally, a traumatic birth can leave a woman experiencing Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for many years after the event. For a woman who gives away the baby she has carried for nine months, she cannot possibly predict how that will feel if she has never carried a baby before, and may find it to be far more traumatic than she expected. Feelings of guilt and grief could lead to mental health problems for the woman for the rest of her life.

For a woman who already has children, the possibility that she could die as the result of a surrogate pregnancy and childbirth, leaving her existing children without their mother, is an unacceptable risk. Of course this is always a risk with any pregnancy, including when the mother is adding to her own family, but the risk is not justified for surrogacy.

In my opinion, this consultation has not been publicised widely enough to collect a representative range of views on the subject of surrogacy reform. I have seen the list of groups and organisations consulted, and it is unfairly biased towards those who would benefit or profit from surrogacy (solicitors, agencies, private fertility clinics and “intended parents”), and there is not enough input from groups representing those who could be exploited or damaged by surrogacy (children and impoverished or vulnerable women).

I have read the following statement that you have made:

“We note the concerns of those stakeholders who felt that the current law was not in need of reform, or that reform was needed to either restrict, or completely ban surrogacy. We do not think that this position is tenable or achievable, and is not what most stakeholders, or Government, have said that they would want.”

I do not believe that you have consulted the correct balance of people to conclude that “most stakeholders” do not want to ban surrogacy, and to claim that a ban on surrogacy is not “tenable or achievable” is ridiculous when so many other European countries have chosen to ban it.

I acknowledge that infertility or inability to have a baby must be extremely painful, but nobody has the right to separate a baby from its birth mother (and I include situations involving a donor egg here) to alleviate such pain. Acquiring a baby is NOT a human right.

I hope that you will now listen to and carefully consider the views of those who believe that all forms of surrogacy should be banned in the UK.

FannyCann · 11/10/2019 14:51

Brilliant letter @littlecabbage

I hope you don't mind but I have copied chunks of your letter and added in a few bits of my own for a last minute notification of objection.

Mfsf · 11/10/2019 15:27

I find some of the comments here vile !! And honestly ignorant ! I’m assuming those opposing never meet intended parents , surrogates or children born through surrogacy ?

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 11/10/2019 15:37

@mfsf can you read @littlecabbage's post and tell me what you consider to be vile about it?

That pretty much sums up my views about the matter and I think many of the other people who have posted.

OhHolyJesus · 11/10/2019 15:39

Which comments in particular? @Mfsf

As you must have RTHT before commenting I think you will have seen already where posters here have met or indeed know intended parents, have considered being a surrogate, have noted points on foster care, same sex couples and the protections of babies, children, adults born from surrogacy and women?

Have you read through all the links posted as well and considered all our points before posting?

littlecabbage · 11/10/2019 15:47

Don’t mind at all FannyCann.

Mfsf, I don’t consider that any of my comments are vile. I used to think altruistic surrogacy was a good thing, until I started reading more and more about the subject.

The information I have discovered, combined with the experience of having my own children and also experiencing permanent birth-related injuries, has caused me to change my mind and believe that all surrogacy should be banned.

This is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is a conclusion I have come to over a long time, having read many different sources of information. I do not think that the huge number of European countries which have banned all surrogacy have done the wrong thing. They are protecting children and women.

Mfsf · 11/10/2019 15:50

All of it ! Why would people like you think children are seen as a commodity ? What makes any of you ( and I doubt any has had fertility issues by the sheer condescending atitude ) think that those children will have issues or be any less loved than your own ?
And to make out surrogates are somewhat victims ... well that’s just plain offensive . Surrogates are not bought , paid or used . They enjoy what they do .
Children are also not taken from their mums , they are returned to their mums , surrogates do not see the babies as their children and I’m sure if a need for cuddles arises they can have plenty .

Children born out of surrogacy are loved , cared for and above all wanted, which is probably a lot more than a lot of children ever where or are .
Honestly as a feminist , a woman , a person who is extremely close to surrogates , intended parents and children born out of surrogacy I find it vile , based on assumptions and not facts .
Oh and surrogates are not poor women exploited, the majority have really nice careers and/or are professional , nurses , midwifes , solicitors , business owners etc are some of the professions of the surrogates I’m close too , me included

HugTrees · 11/10/2019 15:52

thanks for the reminder. Of course this reform is only a good thing. Why shouldn’t IPs be the babies parents from birth?
You know that a lot of mothers breast feed their babies through surrogacy right? That these are much wanted and loved babies and that the baby probably gets a better 4th trimester than a lot of people have the time for.

So baby has all the skin to skin and bonding and breast feeding.

Although if you want to stop that then I think you need to go the full hog and require that all women should be assessed pre pregnancy to find out if they are suitable parents. So many people have babies who are just mediocre parents, why not target or help them?

littlecabbage · 11/10/2019 16:00

surrogates do not see the babies as their children

Unfortunately, a newborn infant is programmed to recognise the woman that carried them as their mother. Research shows it is traumatic to separate them, whether that is uncomfortable for you to think about, or not.

Surrogates are not bought , paid or used

Part of this consultation is to consider allowing surrogacy to become commercial (paid) in the UK. Have you actually read the proposals?

OhHolyJesus · 11/10/2019 16:03

@HugTrees and @Mfsf

It's clear that you haven't read much of what has been posted as you would see how wrong you are, in so many ways I can barely begin...

Have you each completed the consultation to share your own views or have you just come on here to tell us how vile we are?

Mfsf · 11/10/2019 16:10

I’ve read the proposal and acted on it . Thousands of children are separated from their birth mums after the birth , due to a multitude of issues and I doubt there is any studies that show they grow up to be any less , maybe you should worry with all the birth mums outside maternity wards smoking like chimneys and then returning to their babies ,I wonder how much of their mum scent they love , or those returning home to degraded homes with no heating or worse !
And the reason compensation is proposed is because expenses are very restrictive , and at present if a intended parents was to give a gift to the surrogate , as a example , that is taken into account . Surrogates are also not allowed to include resting or recovery breaks as expenses which could probably benefit some .
It doesn’t mean that surrogacy is to become comercial as it is in the USA , no surrogate or intended parent wants that or at least not any I know of and I know a few hundreds . This proposal simply brings a bit of flexibility .

yulet · 11/10/2019 16:24

Just bumping.

OhHolyJesus · 11/10/2019 16:36

Did you find the proposals presented in a fair and balanced way with lots of information about the negative as well as the positive impacts for the new pathway @Mfsf ?

Because that is what public consultations are meant to do. If you can't see the move to make surrogacy more commercial in these proposals then I can't help you as you simply do not want to see it.

There is so much you have said to unpack, but really I would love for you to tell me what you think should happen to the family of the American woman who died carrying twins for a Spanish couple, how much compensation should they get, those boys, for the loss of their mother for life? The twins died too. Should the widowed husband pay compensation to the intended parents?

How much is a miscarriage worth? At what point? What did you put as your answer there?

OhHolyJesus · 11/10/2019 16:43

Oh and do the babies of the mothers they are separated from get returned to their mothers?

My friend was rushed for emergency surgery following a haemorrhage from a serious birth injury and it meant she couldn't establish breastfeeding. Her daughter suffered, she didn't stop crying (who knows about the emotional side, the thing about babies is they can't talk or think, but they sure can cry) but she stopped crying the moment she was back with her mother and eventually they established breastfeed and she fed her until she was 2.

Do surrogate babies get to be with their mothers? No. They don't.

Mfsf · 11/10/2019 16:53

No I actually think it’s unbalanced and biased , I find it negative towards surrogacy. I also appreciate the explanation of what a proposal is but as a surrogate and solicitor myself I understand it very well and have taken great care in making sure I don’t agree with all of it ( I do not agree with all of it )
I would tell that family the same thing I would say to any family whose children just lost their mother that I was sorry for their loss and that it was a tragedy .
I still maintain that to consider a surrogate a victim the surrogate would need to be taken advantage of , and surrogates in the uk are well informed and able to access any information they need , they are not forced , they are not persuaded they are not used .
And I can assure you both my surrogacy pregnancies where far from easy during pregnancy and birth , but at no stage of those journeys , and the first was extremely challenging for me health wise , did I feel forced cheated or abused in anyway .
I felt however sacred that if complications arises with the baby the legal responsibility to that baby was mine , as many surrogates do and the change proposed here that gives IPs parents right from birth could have really helped that anxiety .
As for miscarriages abortions or anything like that, as with anything in life it’s a personal thing to be agreed between both parties and nobody in the UK is or will ever be forced to do something they don’t agree with

Mfsf · 11/10/2019 16:56

Littlecabagge if you are comparing a newborn being separated from the birth mum to that then you need to rethink your capacity to actually interprete things .
The babies are nurtured and have skin to skin and are often breastfeed by the mum anyway .

OhHolyJesus · 11/10/2019 16:58

As a surrogate and as a solicitor Mfsf can I ask you to read the court case notes posted up thread and let me know whether you think this UK surrogate was forced at ANY time? Thanks.

It's women like her that need to be protected. We heard the warm fluffy story from Surro upthread. Your experience is not everyone's experience.

LizziesTwin · 11/10/2019 17:04

Bumping this to encourage others to complete the consultation before the period ends later tonight.

littlecabbage · 11/10/2019 17:17

Mfsf, the point of posting that article was to illustrate the impact on a developing brain of the stress of being separated from a mother. Newborns have been shown to be able to differentiate their own mother (the one that carried them) from birth, due to heartbeat, voice, scent and other factors. So being cuddled by another woman is not the same unfortunately.

I suspect you just looked at the headline.

I don’t believe that I will change your mind about surrogacy, but I think it is useful to respond to the points you raise here, for others who may be reading and starting to have their eyes opened about the realities of surrogacy for children and vulnerable women. There is plenty of relevant information upthread for people who wish to read more about why many believe surrogacy should be banned.

testing987654321 · 11/10/2019 17:29

I have just done to the end of section 9. This is painful - I can't bring myself to just do a copy and paste as I suspect they will just dismiss a lot of those as repeats, so I am doing my best effort as to why I think surrogacy as suggested is wrong. Feel like it's going to take a while.