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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

New NHS guidance on same sex accommodation

193 replies

LukewarmCustard · 30/09/2019 17:29

The guidance starts out well. '1.2 Guidance statement: Providers of NHS-funded care are expected to have a zero-tolerance approach to mixed-sex accommodation, except where it is in the overall best interest of all patients affected.'

But then there is Annex B, which says 'Trans people should be accommodated according to their presentation: the way they dress, and the name and pronouns they currently use. This may not always accord with the physical sex appearance of the chest or genitalia. It does not depend on their having a gender recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change. It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for instance, that preoperative trans people should not share open shower facilities).' Annex B was apparently written with input from the Government Equalities Office.

NHS accommodation is now mixed sex accommodation with allocations based on pronouns.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Popchyk · 02/10/2019 19:38

Sarah Vine is a criminal barrister, Temporary. Not the journalist and wife of Michael Gove.

Michelleoftheresistance · 02/10/2019 20:49

You can hear NHS England going oh shit..... in that reply. Who's going to run the book on whether NHS Improvement have had the dog eat their impact assessment?

It's that bloody welsh terrier again, it gets everywhere.

Michelleoftheresistance · 02/10/2019 20:58

The whole problem is that you can't make case by case decisions on which people under stonewall's umbrella should be on women's wards by their personal preference rather than biological fact. There is nowhere you can put a line between male born people who have had extensive surgery and a long history of gender dysphoria and male born people who enjoy cross dressing and the sexual thrill of being in women's spaces, especially when it makes women uncomfortable and intimidated. It's forced the only solution to be no male born people at all in single sex women's spaces because women's privacy, dignity, needs and inclusion matters too.

The only way to do it without putting anyone under the bus is to have a blanket policy that people wishing to be accommodated by identity choice over biological sex are given private rooms/spaces. And the NHS better start creating more of those.

I would suggest that women who wish single sex spaces get the private rooms, since those women will be breathing 'thank god for that' as opposed to howling about segregation, but I don't think a hospital will have that many private spaces available.

Melroses · 02/10/2019 21:01

I googled NHS Improvements and it came up with the following (is that 2019 or 2020?)

Working together
From 1 April, NHS England
opens in a new window
and NHS Improvement come together to act as a single organisation. Our aim is to better support the NHS and help improve care for patients.
It will mean we have one website but not quite yet. In the meantime you can continue to use our existing sites.

Melroses · 02/10/2019 21:03

('Opens in a new window' wasn't actually there - don't know where it came from)

FOIrequester · 02/10/2019 21:41

This is the heading on the reply from NHS England to my FOI request.

FOI, England (NHS ENGLAND & NHS IMPROVEMENT - X24), NHS England

Which makes it look as though the FOI requests for NHS England and NHS Improvement go to the same place.

But I don't suppose anyone has done any sort of impact assessment, because if they had, they wouldn't have a policy which effectively says 'A man should be accommodated on a female ward if he's wearing a dress and says he's a woman'.

Melroses · 02/10/2019 22:57

LOL it will probably go to the next desk Grin.

pp above are right, they will have a (shared) Welsh Terrier Wink

LoveGrowsWhere · 02/10/2019 23:06

I think it's interesting to note the first signatory to the revised guidance is Rith May, Chief Nursing Officer. How can someone who has been in nursing so long lack insight into how this will play out?

LoveGrowsWhere · 02/10/2019 23:06

Ruth not Rith!

failingatlife · 02/10/2019 23:59

Michael Conroy has started a petition 😍

mobile.twitter.com/MichealConraoi/status/1179405385737887745

New NHS guidance on same sex accommodation
TemporaryPermanent · 03/10/2019 00:10

Oops sorry for my Sarah Vine error, very dumb of me. Thanks popchyk.

Lamahaha · 03/10/2019 11:15

Apologies if this was already posted, I haven't had time to read the last few pages.

New NHS guidance on same sex accommodation
DickKerrLadies · 03/10/2019 11:47

Who is giving organisations such as Lancs NHS 'legal advice' on the Equality Act?

That reads as if they know that the emperor has no clothes on but that because of their 'legal advice' they believe they can't do anything about it.

TheShoesa · 03/10/2019 12:02

Probably the same people who advised the EHRC on the Schools Guidance

Michelleoftheresistance · 03/10/2019 12:13

That quote Lamaha

The obligatory of course we don't believe all TW are like this, for obvious reasons.... but 100% of the TW accommodated in female provision in 18 months had to be removed from the female area when their behaviour, which was sexualised and aggressive, became extreme enough. So in 100% of cases where 'inclusive' policy was followed, women victims happened, and had to happen before anything could be done.

How blatant does the sexism need to be here?

MouthyHarpy · 04/10/2019 10:56

Those Birmingham stats are shocking.

Defenestrator · 04/10/2019 12:52

Well if it's a top priority a good start would be to segregate the sexes...

TheShoesa · 04/10/2019 12:56

I want to write to my MP on this, and know what I want to put in the main body of the text, but would welcome suggestions as to how to finish the letter. What is the best thing to ask him to do, please? DO I need to ask him to look into who was involved in writing the policy, or find out what the guidance from the GEO was (given that the rights are in conflict)

Popchyk · 04/10/2019 13:24

Keep it short, TheShoes. Don't try to do too much.

Ask what their position is on same-sex hospital wards. And whether they agree that female same-sex wards should be single-sex only.

Current NHS guidance states the need for same-sex accommodation in order to protect the safety, privacy and dignity of women.

New guidance, however, contradicts that by allowing access to female same-sex wards by any man who claims to be transgender or non-binary.

Ask how female same-sex wards can actually exist at all when NHS policy allows males to be accommodated there.

Include the link in the OP.

Ask them to pass a copy your letter to Matt Hancock, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care.

That's it.

You can give more information when they reply to you.

TheShoesa · 04/10/2019 13:45

Thanks for that Popchyk

I'll use your points above and see where it leads.

I just listened to Dr Nic on LBC and there was a link to Nick Ferrari talking about the issue to Matt Hancock in March

www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/health-secretary-trans-patients-nhs/

where he sounds like he agrees that it is a bad policy but won't actually say so, so there might be a glimmer of hope there (Unless that view has been re-educated out of him since March)

Gingerkittykat · 05/10/2019 04:44

Presumably this also applies to childrens wards? Where could be the harm in young people, teens maybe sharing in mixed sex wards 🙄

My DD spent a lot of time in and out of hospital, wards were always mixed sex and when it came to 2 or 4 bed bays then these were also mixed sex.

Her time in hospital ended before she hit puberty, I have no idea if they make an effort to provide single sex accommodation for older kids.

boatyardblues · 05/10/2019 05:40

The Birmingham hospitals rape stats in that article above show that the figures have consistently been rising year on year since 2014. I’d be including that data in any MP letter - Birmingham won’t be an isolated case, that’s for sure.