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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Gene - An intimate history - Swyer Syndrome and David Reimer

219 replies

LaPeste · 30/09/2019 12:26

I am currently reading a book called "The Gene - An Intimate History" by Siddhartha Mukherjee. In the book, he has a short section on the genetics of sex and gender identity, and I wanted to share what he says to hear your thoughts.

First, he presents the cases of Swyer Syndrome, where people have XY chromosomes, but present and almost always report a female gender identity. He also presents the famous case of David Reimer, who was brought up as a girl after a botched surgery, realised he was male, changed gender, and eventually killed himself.

He brings these cases to make the point that gender identity in both cases does seem to be some fixed characteristic, that it is not necessarily aligned with our genetics or with how we are externally treated. I certainly know in the Reimer case that there were a great many other compounding factors that affected the poor man, and contributed to his suicide.

He then goes on to make the point that despite the binary nature of sex (XY/XX), or more accurately, the gene(s) in a particular region of the X chromosome (SRY gene region), that there is a mechanism for trans people. What he argues is that while there may be a master gene that turns male sex and female sex on and off, there can be a cascade of genes that create what we are debating as gender identity. I'm explaining it poorly, but as a gender critical person, it does give some pause.

Quoting from an article

"Mukherjee compares the master regulator to an army commander. At top of the hierarchy is gender anatomy; countless variations exist downstream in the composition of the army, each with slightly different components. You might have male identity with differing sexual attractions, or you might have differing aspects of male identity. He continues, The way that these genes—this genetic information percolates down into the individual, the way this hierarchy percolates down into an individual might be very different from one person to another and therefore create the kind of infinite ripples or variations in human identity that we experience in human life."

bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/can-transgenderism-be-explained-with-genetics

I just wondered if you'd come across this, and what you thought of it.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 02/10/2019 11:43

What has a thread about intersex got to do with a "compromise", apparently involving "compassion", that women should be making with transactivism?

NOTHING!

You gave the conflation a good go, OP, but it's not there. Plus, it's bloody offensive to intersex people.

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 11:44

If you're going to compare this with religion, then 'gender identity' can be compared to 'God' and 'belief in gender identity' can be compared to 'Christianity

I just don’t quite agree. Gender identity is closer to a belief in god, rather than god

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/10/2019 11:44

All apologies to LangCleg for following the misdirect!

@LaPeste can you say how you got from DSD to trans/gender identity? That might clear up what it is you are trying to say? At the monent you have made a BIG leap, on many TRAs make and many intersex individuals protest!

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 11:44

Just women’s rugby LaPeste ?

Is it ok for men to compete against women in other sports where size, strength and reaction speeds are a factor?

LangCleg · 02/10/2019 11:45

I just don’t quite agree. Gender identity is closer to a belief in god, rather than god

Now you're just being silly.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 11:46

it's bloody offensive to intersex people

This

A physically healthy person appropriating conditions that can make sufferers very ill indeed is pretty shit to be honest

Very poor taste

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/10/2019 11:50

A Christian belives Jesus is the son of god.

I do not.

When a Christian says Jesus is the son of god I am free to say, nah mate, that's bollocks. There is no consequence for me doing so in law.

I am happy to treat 'gender identity' in the same way if it means that when a man says 'I'm a woman' I am free to say 'nah mate, you're a bloke and I'm going to call you he' with no consequence in law.

Is that the sort of 'compromise' you have in mind?

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 11:51

Bernard, LOL. Was I supposed to list every sport? l

OP posts:
OldCrone · 02/10/2019 11:51

Gender identity is closer to a belief in god, rather than god

Can you explain this?

Maybe a better comparison would be to compare the existence of 'gender identity' to the existence of souls. So I recognise that some people believe in souls, without believing in those myself.

I think this is quite a good comparison, because believing you have a 'gender identity' which doesn't match your body is a bit like believing in a soul which is in the wrong body.

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 11:54

The point I was making gender identity is akin to a belief in god, souls, whatever, rather than the actual thing itself

OP posts:
Datun · 02/10/2019 11:54

OP, you might be floundering around with a stream of consciousness, half formed ideas, and feelings that you can't quite grasp, but please understand that appropriating intersex conditions is a TRA tactic, one which is groundless, because they are entirely different concepts.

And a vague feeling that certain sports should be single sex, is a useless debate, since we are way, way beyond that.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 11:54

Thanks ever so much for showering us with your kernels of compromise LaPeste, but I’m really no clearer on what you suggest should actually happen

And why DSDs come into it at all?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/10/2019 11:56

I mean, OP can make whatever compromises she likes for herself. Has nothing to do with me, though, and is no way binding upon me or any other woman, no matter how much OP might wish otherwise.

Datun · 02/10/2019 11:56

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, OP, this thread might be useful.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

LangCleg · 02/10/2019 11:58

The point I was making gender identity is akin to a belief in god, souls, whatever, rather than the actual thing itself

No it isn't! Even in your (very tenuous) argument, a "gender identity" is the object of the belief, not the faith itself.

And intersex still has nothing to do with social compromises to be made with extremist transactivism, and it is still offensive to intersex people to suggest it does.

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 11:58

Floundering, lol. I’ll leave this thread as it’s been helpful. Those who got their backs up will no doubt go away feeling confirmed but this thread has helped me see a way to personally think about this. Thanks for all the positive contributions.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 12:00

this thread has helped me see a way to personally think about this

Spill!

Because from here I’d have said that on this subject the inside of your head resembles a giant scribble

Or possibly a question mark in font size 75

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 12:01

And now we’ve got all these compromise kernels all over the place

I’m not sweeping them up

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/10/2019 12:03

Are you not going to answer my specific question then OP?

It requires only a yes or no answer.

Does your idea of compromise include allowing me to say to a man who calls himself a woman 'no, you are a man and I will refer to you as such' or not?

You are the one bringing up comparisons to religion after all and I am not required to pretend Jesus is the son of god.

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 12:08

Arnold, quick answer, given your actual question, I would say yes but that depending on the context, it may come with consequences.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 12:09

depending on the context, it may come with consequences

Off to gulag for you Arnold!

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 12:10

No, just drawing a direct parallel with how we treat religious belief

OP posts:
Datun · 02/10/2019 12:11

You are floundering, OP.

You can't define any of your terms, think that rugby is the only sport that men who say they are women should be segregated from, even though you agree they're not women (sexism and complete lack of logic), talked at length about intersex, and then said it's not about intersex, said you're not flouncing and the thread has gone well, but flouncing, whilst trying to pretend that it is the people you're speaking to who are angry, not you!

Floundering.

flounder1
/ˈflaʊndə/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: floundering
struggle or stagger clumsily in mud or water.

struggle mentally; show or feel great confusion.
"she floundered, not knowing quite what to say"

Similar:
struggle
thrash
thresh
flail
toss and turn

Opposite:
make good progress

Datun · 02/10/2019 12:13

There is no parallel in that way. God doesn't exist, I don't believe in it.

That doesn't mean you should be fired if you do.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 12:14

No, just drawing a direct parallel with how we treat religious belief

Oh?

So what are the ‘consequences’ for me saying I don’t believe in god?

Don’t think there are any are there?

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