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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Gene - An intimate history - Swyer Syndrome and David Reimer

219 replies

LaPeste · 30/09/2019 12:26

I am currently reading a book called "The Gene - An Intimate History" by Siddhartha Mukherjee. In the book, he has a short section on the genetics of sex and gender identity, and I wanted to share what he says to hear your thoughts.

First, he presents the cases of Swyer Syndrome, where people have XY chromosomes, but present and almost always report a female gender identity. He also presents the famous case of David Reimer, who was brought up as a girl after a botched surgery, realised he was male, changed gender, and eventually killed himself.

He brings these cases to make the point that gender identity in both cases does seem to be some fixed characteristic, that it is not necessarily aligned with our genetics or with how we are externally treated. I certainly know in the Reimer case that there were a great many other compounding factors that affected the poor man, and contributed to his suicide.

He then goes on to make the point that despite the binary nature of sex (XY/XX), or more accurately, the gene(s) in a particular region of the X chromosome (SRY gene region), that there is a mechanism for trans people. What he argues is that while there may be a master gene that turns male sex and female sex on and off, there can be a cascade of genes that create what we are debating as gender identity. I'm explaining it poorly, but as a gender critical person, it does give some pause.

Quoting from an article

"Mukherjee compares the master regulator to an army commander. At top of the hierarchy is gender anatomy; countless variations exist downstream in the composition of the army, each with slightly different components. You might have male identity with differing sexual attractions, or you might have differing aspects of male identity. He continues, The way that these genes—this genetic information percolates down into the individual, the way this hierarchy percolates down into an individual might be very different from one person to another and therefore create the kind of infinite ripples or variations in human identity that we experience in human life."

bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/can-transgenderism-be-explained-with-genetics

I just wondered if you'd come across this, and what you thought of it.

OP posts:
LaPeste · 02/10/2019 10:38

5) Until you spell out what you mean by 4) the whole conversation is a complete waste of time.

That seems a bit backward. Unless one has the solution to everything there is no point in even discussing it!

OP posts:
LaPeste · 02/10/2019 10:39

I agree, I don’t think 4 is easy at all, but I think the compromise comes from a recognizing that sex is binary but gender identity seems to exist before you get to point 4.

OP posts:
Datun · 02/10/2019 10:39

We can recognise religion exists, without accepting that it's true.

No one has any problem recognising that certain people wish they were the opposite sex. That's gender dysphoria. It's an illness.

People who think they're Napoleon are not the emperor of France.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/10/2019 10:41

I think the compromise comes from a recognizing that sex is binary but gender identity seems to exist Erm... I haven't seen anyone deny gender identity exists! That's one of the TRA cants, that GC feminists want to deny their existence, etc.

Gender identity does exist WHAT it is is the issue!

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 10:42

But do we say people who believe in god are ill?

OP posts:
LangCleg · 02/10/2019 10:42

No, i see it as a bit like recognizing that religion exists. It’s a good parallel. I can imagine that are environmental and genetic factors that make people prone to believe in religion. You don’t have to believe in god to accept that Christianity exists

LOL!

That's what you got from this thread and Lurker's contributions in particular?!

Tenuous, my friend, tenuous.

Nothing in this thread is persuasive about women finding compromise, or indeed utilising their female socialisation compassion with regard to transactivism.

Never mind: you gave it a good, if unsuccessful, go and at least there was no flouncing!

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 10:42

3) trans women are not women
4) there should be some compassion and recognition for the fact that gender identity exists while retaining sex based rights and protection.

That's quite a jump from point 3 to point 4. I'm reminded by this of the South Park sock gnomes

what recognition would you suggest LaPeste, given that you understand that men aren't women no matter how they like to dress and behave and thus have no place using spaces and services set aside for women?

The Gene - An intimate history - Swyer Syndrome and David Reimer
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 10:44

I think the compromise comes from a recognizing that sex is binary but gender identity seems to exist

unless you spell out precisely what action you expect to come from this recognition, the whole conversation is rather pointless no?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/10/2019 10:44

I mean, if for some reason wasting your own time and that of others by leading them around in circles is something you find enjoyable then crack on, I guess? If otoh you would like to actually discuss this issue then you will need to define what you mean by "compassion" and "recognition" in this context.

Datun · 02/10/2019 10:45

But do we say people who believe in god are ill?

No, we don't. But we do say people who think they are the opposite sex are. Hence a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

You see how this works? When something is analogous, it doesn't mean it's identical.

Datun · 02/10/2019 10:48

If otoh you would like to actually discuss this issue then you will need to define what you mean by "compassion" and "recognition" in this context.

And 'gender identity'.

It also might become apparent that when challenged, the trans ideology is rooted in clouds and candy floss. If you can't define your terms, any of them, then it's just pointless jibber jabber.

LangCleg · 02/10/2019 10:49

Gender identity does exist WHAT it is is the issue!

The thread is about intersex. Nothing to do with transactivism, which is what OP is trying to misdirect about.

Nothing in this thread applies to trans identities. Gender identity in the trans ideology sense is, at best, an expressed desire to mimic the opposite sex.

OP seems to think a discussion of intersex leads us to an obligation for women to compromise with extremist transactivism. This is cobblers.

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 10:51

This thread is not about intersex at its core

OP posts:
ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/10/2019 10:51

No, i see it as a bit like recognizing that religion exists

Nobody denies some people believe gods exist.
Nobody denies some people believe 'gender identities' exist.

Many people do not believe in unevidenced gods. Many people do not believe in unevidenced 'gender identities'.

If 'gender identity' believers would simply accept others are not required to share their unsubstantiated beliefs or live their lives by them we wouldn't be having these conversations to start with.

Forcing your beliefs on others is not a compromise. It is an imposition.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/10/2019 10:51

You know, there is an individual with Swyer syndrome who chimes in on a lot of threads about trans demands versus the needs of intersex people. Nicky is the name, I believe? Anyway, Nicky has been very clear about resenting the way in which TRAs have attempted to appropriate Nicky's medical condition.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/10/2019 10:51

Thanks Lang... I was successfully misdirected! Blush

Back on track now!

OrchidInTheSun · 02/10/2019 10:53

Religious people don't demand we also believe what they believe. If they do (evangelists, Jehovah's Witnesses) we can shut the door in their face and no one says we're bigots or tells us a die in a fire.

That's the difference between the belief in gender identity and religion.

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 10:53

I’m not flouncing and I think the thread has gone well. I think I’m small g small c gender critical approach and I actually see the kernel of a gender critical compromise here (not saying I have the all the answers)

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 10:54

This thread is not about intersex at its core

Yeah I had spotted your agenda, thanks LaPeste

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/10/2019 10:55

If someone said they believe God exists then I'd say that I disagree and as long as that's as far as it goes we would both then go about our business.

If someone said that they believe God exists and has decreed that I have to shower with naked adult males because refusing to do so make said males unhappy, and from there began explaining their plan to force me to comply with their religion via law and corporate practice, then I would argue that whether or not the person is ill is irrelevant, the relevant issue being that the person is attempting to impose their religious beliefs on others.

Datun · 02/10/2019 10:55

This thread is not about intersex at its core

Can you explain what gender identity means to an actual transperson, then. Someone who isn't intersex.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/10/2019 10:55

I actually see the kernel of a gender critical compromise here

Do share

LangCleg · 02/10/2019 10:56

This thread is not about intersex at its core

Awww, mate. And you were doing so well, too!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 02/10/2019 10:56

People do see things that aren't there sometimes.

LaPeste · 02/10/2019 10:59

Awww, mate. And you were doing so well, too!

???

OP posts:
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