Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Islam is right about women

102 replies

Popchyk · 28/09/2019 13:40

Interesting article in Spiked.

Mentions Posie, Harry the Owl etc.

www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/26/the-genius-of-the-islam-is-right-about-women-stunt/

A sign with the words 'Islam is right about women' was put up in a town in Massachusetts.

Reactions were interesting. People (mainly women) trying, and failing, to articulate what was wrong with it. But expressing discomfort/offence anyway.

From the article:

"The reason for their dilemma is obvious enough to anyone who has been paying attention. Western society has managed to convince itself (at least in public) that any statement criticising any aspect of Islam is, by definition, bigotry. As a result, Western societies have effectively decided to enforce Islamic restrictions on blasphemy, and called it ‘tolerance’".

The strain of conforming to this lie is evident in the fumbling attempts by the interviewees to explain their objections.

"I think the source of the objection is as follows: ‘I thought we had all agreed to pretend not to have any negative opinions about Islam. But this statement forces me either to agree with it, which I don’t, or disagree with it, which I’m not allowed to.’

The result is utter confusion on the part of the interviewees about how to signal their obedience to the unspoken lie".

OP posts:
clitherow · 29/09/2019 01:17

I get the impression that you think I will agree with you. I don’t.

Actually no, I'd be fascinated to hear why you disagree with me.

Creepster · 29/09/2019 05:04

That's the beauty of a thought terminating cliche. They work.

Teacher22 · 29/09/2019 05:44

I have no problem with calling out misogynistic cultures wherever they oppress women but I observe other people then themselves into knots trying to explain why FGM, grooming and assaulting girls and women, denying equal rights to women, dressing females in tortuous humiliating garments meant to remind them of their inferiority and so on are perfectly acceptable.

And I find the current efforts to negate free speech by making criticism of a misogynistic culture illegal utterly sinister and against the spirit of equality before the law , of freedom and of social equality which women have fought for centuries to achieve.

andyoldlabour · 29/09/2019 11:12

"I honestly couldn't criticise one above any other, could you?"

I honestly cannot remember the last time I heard of a Christian woman being publicly beheaded in a Western country for committing adultery, or being sent to jail for refusing to wear a scarf.
All religions without exception have been created by men as a means of control, and in those religions, women have had vitually no power.
Some religions have modernised, some have not.
Some religions and branches of those religions, regard women to be the property of men.
I was brought up (indoctrinated) as a Catholic, my mother was a violent Catholic and my dad was pretty much an atheist.
I am married to someone brought up as a Muslim, and fortunately we have pretty much the same ideas on life and religion.
Here is a Q&A section on what is and isn't premissable in Islam.

islamqa.info/en/answers/41199/hitting-ones-wife

"The hadeeth may be understood as meaning that a man has the right to hit his wife, in a manner that is not harsh and does not cause injury if if there is a reason for that, such as her going against his wishes or disobeying him."
"The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her."

Lamahaha · 29/09/2019 11:24

I agree with Nuffaluff. The Muslim women I know are not oppressed at all.

Same here, and I do know a lot of Muslims, men and women. None of them are oppressors/oppressed.

Not all Muslims live up to Mohammed's principal but we can't condemn an entire group on the basis of a few.

Stereotyping religious people (of any faith) is not helpful.

clitherow · 29/09/2019 11:33

Same here, and I do know a lot of Muslims, men and women. None of them are oppressors/oppressed.

The point is not about individuals but a religious system that is enforced by a legal one.

FeverDream · 29/09/2019 12:31

Same here, and I do know a lot of Muslims, men and women. None of them are oppressors/oppressed

Presumably none of them live in Saudi or Brunei or Pakistan

Ereshkigal · 29/09/2019 12:32

It's a bait designed to expose muddy thinking, defensive reactions and superficial "saint or sinner" political positions.

If you're trying to prove the sign right or wrong: congratulations! You fell for it.

This.

Lamahaha · 29/09/2019 14:39

As far as I can tell all religions rely on their followers willingly avoiding critical thinking, so it's not for me.

On the contrary, I've found sincerely riligious people to be deeply interested in critical thinking and in-depth discussion on comparative religion etc.

It's atheists whom I find dismissive and unwilling to engage, rather believing in cliches and stereotypes of religion, such as "fairy in the sky" and "invisible friend" and "flying spaghetti monster".

AngelsSins · 29/09/2019 17:50

For me the statement is offensive because it lumps women altogether in one group and implies that Islam views them as all the same, and not individuals like men.

The statement is offensive no matter what you switch Islam for or what you change women for:

Politicians were right about people of colour
Jewdaism is right about the disabled
Christians we’re right about dog owners

It’s all the same, the statement is neutral in that you don’t know what it’s refering to, it could be good or bad, but judging all people that belong to one category as the same, is not ok.

Really bad at articulating my thoughts on things like this, but hopefully that makes sense.

coatlessinspokane · 29/09/2019 18:01

It’s stupid because we’re not a homogeneous group and so there’s not just one way to treat us.

The idea is that there is a rule book on us is just stupid.

It reminds me of that slogan a while back “Career women make bad mothers”. It’s like, Fuck off, we’re individual human beings, and not a completely different species as men who get to be individuals without being lumped together. Radical thought really.

coatlessinspokane · 29/09/2019 18:03

The point is not about individuals but a religious system that is enforced by a legal one.

Yep, like any society, it’s not about individuals within that society but about the ideas floating about in that society that influence people’s actions and attitudes.

andyoldlabour · 29/09/2019 18:21

"On the contrary, I've found sincerely riligious people to be deeply interested in critical thinking and in-depth discussion on comparative religion etc."

As a gender critical male, who puts biology and reality above social construct, and one who is a lapsed Catholic, I find that statement to be a bit challenging.
As a mid teen at school, I was humiliated in front of classmates and put in detention, simply for asking questions about the validity of my religion, and for asking for scientific proof of the existence of any deity. I asked why all the other religions were not as "true" as the Catholic religion.

coatlessinspokane · 29/09/2019 20:59

andyoldlabour me too. I’ve lost count of he number of times I’ve been told to accept things because it’s in the bible and those that do tell you to think critically usually mean within the confines of belief.

Creepster · 29/09/2019 21:17

All religions are wrong about women, and Islam is no exception.

Endofthedays · 29/09/2019 21:51

So how is Islam actually organised.

I know there are Sunni, Shia and Sufi. But how are the rules decided? Are there hierarchies? Councils?

I don’t know what Islam teaches, who decides that, or how.

Teddybear45 · 29/09/2019 22:02

99% of the problems with Islam is that 99% of the muslim world can’t read ancient Arabic and so have no idea how enlighted Islam is about women.

FumingMrsJustice · 29/09/2019 22:13

99% of the problems with Islam is that 99% of the muslim world can’t read ancient Arabic and so have no idea how enlighted Islam is about women.

As an Arabic speaking Muslim woman, who is of mixed ethnicity from Arab and non Arab background. All of whome CAN read ancient Arabic from an early age. And majority of Muslim friends and colleagues from across the globe read and write Arabic and learn it to be able to read the holy book. I find your statistics quite un-“enlightened”.

coatlessinspokane · 29/09/2019 22:18

Endofthedays well countries vary in their “strictness”, ranging from your classical Sharia law in Saudi Arabia to the secularism of Turkey and a whole lot of mixed systems in between (where they have a mixture of Islamic and western based models of law).

That’s the legal side of things. Then you have the different branches / interpretations of Islamic ideology itself which different countries/populations adhere to. Saudi has Wahhabism (also known as Salafism AFAIK) which tends to interpret the Quran quite strictly. Then there’s Sunni which I believe holds Aisha in high esteem. She was the child bride of Mohammed and went on to make a massive impact.

There’s a lot of different ways to interpret Islam because you don’t just have the Quran but also the Hadiths (traditions) which were written after Mohammed.

His comments about women covering are also open to interpretation, with Salafists (eg in Saudi) interpreting it strictly to mean women should wear the abaya.

So I guess the statement “Islam is right about women” begs the question “Which Islam?”

I think I got that right. I’m sure someone can put me right if inaccurate!

DoctorAllcome · 29/09/2019 22:30

The statement “Islam is right about women” is trolling just like the “Its ok to be white” statement. It’s cleverly designed to start arguments about Islam + women. It’s not meant to be an actual observation or opinion.

Yeahnahyeah · 29/09/2019 23:35

99% of the problems with Islam is that 99% of the muslim world can’t read ancient Arabic and so have no idea how enlighted Islam is about women

Bollocks.

Teddybear45 · 30/09/2019 00:05

@ FumingMrsJustice - the majority of the world’s muslims aren’t Arab like you; they are Asian like me. I know plenty of Indians and Pakistanis and Afghanis and Malaysians who can recite the Qu’raan in Arabic but none who can understand it. It’s a huge problem.

FumingMrsJustice · 30/09/2019 10:13

Teddybear45
Except I’m half Arab half Asian as indicated in my previous post. And both sides read, write and understand the teachings of the Quraan to a good level. And Arabs aren’t 1% of the Muslim world...

In fact I haven’t seen any other religion emphasise on teaching the original language of the holy scriptures around all its followers. Which does mean most of us read and write the language, and understand the teachings from all the translated books and the Friday sermons and the widely available Islamic circles widely spread across even the poorest parts of the Muslim world.

We have a diverse understanding of the teaching due to the diverse cultural background of the followers And that is the point in being from different languages and backgrounds. It’s a very inclusive religion so please do not paint it as otherwise.

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ (13)

“O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.”

Even Arabs don’t learn language from the classical texts alone and get taught all the context and interpretations by “people of knowledge”. Which is what introduces multiple interpretations of the rulings. But the Essence of the actual intellectual understanding of God is all non requiring of any middle man and can be directly derived by the individual who learnt the basic language or read its basic translation.. which is again the point, to remove any needs of mediation.

Only the rulings require “people of knowledge” and in depth understanding and whether you are an Arab or a non Arab, You still need to learn the context of the rulings and how it applies to you. The language is irrelevant to anyone but the one teaching it unless you want to do your own verification which again is widely available.

So yes, Islam is only One. There are multiple interpretations of the specific lifestyle “rulings” which is actually encouraged by the religion to be inclusive. As for matters of understanding the spiritual parts it’s one. There has been divisions just like in Christianity about the concept of diety, but the source of teaching that is pretty clear, non changing, and only one.

The ruling interpretation for women differ just like they do for men. Based on who and where is teaching it and based on the individual female circumstance.

In any case, I agree this debate is infertile. I won’t be discussing points raised by PP about Islam and their perception of it. But majority what I’m reading is assumption and extrapolations and biased..

If anyone interested to know details you’re welcome to PM me. Happy to debate and use my “critical thinking” and be questions about fundamentals of my faith. As in fact unlike most religions, we are encouraged to do that to reach our own individual understanding.

As far the debate is concerned... well yeh, I’m not sure what “Islam is right about women” mean. Sounds like it’s pushing an agenda nothing more. Because

1- what DO YOU think Islam says about women?
2- which women are we talking about ?!

Islam does talk about human nature in general. And yeh as a Muslim I’m inclined to agree Islam is right about human nature, because by default being a Muslim I believe the creator knows his creation. But Islam has rulings for men and women which differ in some areas about how to please god.. doesn’t really define any individual as these rulings are indeed breakable depending on circumstances, as identified by the religion itself. We will be gathered together on the day of judgement men and women, judged on the exact same thing.. there is no judgement day for men or for women.. there’s for humans.

A statement that says “Islam is right about men” is equally confusing. It actually means nothing.

As for the argument that you judge a religion by its followers.. while admit the western Christian world seems to be doing well for itself in terms of justice.. facilitated by a preceding era of massacres, invasions and stealing resources and so being on top of the game now seems like the best way to not behave like a survival of the fittest jungle.. but there has been many eras before, where this hasn’t been the case.

Judaism isn’t in my book best judged by its current followers either.

And as a Muslim, I’m instructed to not judge either Christianity or Judaism by its followers and instead by its governing theology. Which I have great respect for.

I do judge the followers for what they’re doing but this doesn’t have any direct relation to their godly teachings. It is more about their own understanding and those circumstances.

The Muslim world has been a desperate world. Thanks to all the colonial acts of “good will”. It has been on survival mode. Islam also teaches us to eat pork when there’s is no other food. That the rules are breakable when human needs are vulnerable. It teaches us it’s ok to denounce god if under torture.

So if a Muslim community was eating pork, it does not mean Islam teaches to eat pork. And if a Muslim community denounced god because they’re under torture, it does not mean Islam teaches it’s ok to not believe in god.

So I’m afraid, you just can’t judge a religion by its followers. Even if every single Muslim in this era was doing the exact same thing, I would first see the context. They might not even be practicing their faith and just Muslim by name, just like how many pedos and criminals are of all sorts of religions.

They might have mental issues and a “messiah complex” born out of being raised in . Again blame God all you want, or look at history and blame your own colonial invasions. It’s a matter of perception.

Back to the main topic:

“Islam is right about women”

As a Muslim women, I think that’s just a “clickbait”.

Lamahaha · 30/09/2019 11:59

I asked why all the other religions were not as "true" as the Catholic religion.

Well, that IS a bit of a strange statement, isn't it! I don't know about putting you in detention a conversation would have been more helpful but I can see why there were objections.

Lamahaha · 30/09/2019 12:11

I’ve lost count of he number of times I’ve been told to accept things because it’s in the bible and those that do tell you to think critically usually mean within the confines of belief
Then you, and @anyoldlabour, have been keeping the wrong company. I know many, many Christians who do not refer to the Bible as a knee jerk response to any argument. Including Catholics. Including Catholic priests. I know bible thumpers are annoying. But they are not the only Christians. The critical thinkers among them tend to not speak up, so you wouldn't know their thoughts unless you're prepared to listen. Many aren't.