Islam is right about women

[Popchyk]

Interesting article in Spiked.

Mentions Posie, Harry the Owl etc.

www.spiked-online.com/2019/09/26/the-genius-of-the-islam-is-right-about-women-stunt/

A sign with the words 'Islam is right about women' was put up in a town in Massachusetts.

Reactions were interesting. People (mainly women) trying, and failing, to articulate what was wrong with it. But expressing discomfort/offence anyway.

From the article:

"The reason for their dilemma is obvious enough to anyone who has been paying attention. Western society has managed to convince itself (at least in public) that any statement criticising any aspect of Islam is, by definition, bigotry. As a result, Western societies have effectively decided to enforce Islamic restrictions on blasphemy, and called it ‘tolerance’".

The strain of conforming to this lie is evident in the fumbling attempts by the interviewees to explain their objections.

"I think the source of the objection is as follows: ‘I thought we had all agreed to pretend not to have any negative opinions about Islam. But this statement forces me either to agree with it, which I don’t, or disagree with it, which I’m not allowed to.’

The result is utter confusion on the part of the interviewees about how to signal their obedience to the unspoken lie".

I think we should judge religions based on what they actually do and how they operate on the here and now. For Christianity or Islam we can all pick passages that we can use to justify our argument about how these religions view women. But surely what matters is how girls and women are actually treated in the here and now?

Very interesting to see the replies on here!

The sign isn't criticism of Islam. It's isn't praise of Islam.

It's a bait designed to expose muddy thinking, defensive reactions and superficial "saint or sinner" political positions.

If you're trying to prove the sign right or wrong: congratulations! You fell for it.

If you're trying to prove the sign right or wrong: congratulations! You fell for it.

Exactly.

Why wouldn't you read an article from Spiked?

Mohammed was keen on the emancipation of women; before he came along, women in his region were not allowed to own property or have money of their own, some lived in extremely polygamous marriages.

Mohammeds first wife was very wealthy. Part of the money was from inheritance and part from the successful merchant business she ran. Didn't Mohammed work for her before they married?

Just to add here, I have had Muslim colleagues who definitely were oppressed, were forced to live with male relatives under their supervision if abandoned by their husband, one had her eye blacked for transgressions against the family's code of acceptable behaviour for women, and was strictly limited in what social situations they were allowed to attend. They also lived in fear of being seen doing anything that could be misinterpreted by someone driving past who recognised them and would report back to their families. Another colleague came out to me as a lesbian in tears that she could not speak of this at home, and that an arranged marriage was bearing down on her.

No, it's not all, but it does happen to some and it's important not to forget them or feel it's somehow wrong to admit to them. These will be the women who will lose even more access to public life when selfish males force their self id agenda through, because they will just be told they may no longer attend the single sex swims or gyms etc. They do exist. I wouldn't have said any of the colleagues I'm thinking of were happy at home, work was a daily escape for them.

The sign isn't trying to start a conversation about Islam! It's not about Islam at all! It's about tribal politics and being obedient to your tribe's approved opinions. It's about this limiting your views until the positions you hold are absurd!

It has nothing to do with Islam! The sign could be about anything.

It's obvious what the sign is trying to do. Goad people who are feminists but ones who also avoid criticism of Islam because they don't want to be seen as Islamaphobic.

And most people are tripping over themselves on here to avoid exactly that. As a non-religious person the Catholic Church looks pretty sexist to me, being anti contraception among other things. Islam has got obvious problems with the expectation that women cover up modestly much more so than men have to, to pick one example.

I can't see anything remotely controversial in the two statements above.

s a non-religious person the Catholic Church looks pretty sexist to me

All religion by it's design is oppressive to some degree, it's made to keep people in line and await a reward for that after life.

I honestly couldn't criticise one above any other, could you?

The sign could be about anything.

The sign relies on circular logic, which without having any context or fact is impossible to agree or disagree with.

Agreed, it has nothing to do with Islam.

Or any religion.

It's about you.

And that's much more scary.

I honestly couldn't criticise one above any other, could you?

I think I definitely could compare them if I knew them in detail, some types will be worse and more oppressive than others, some will be pretty good. As far as I can tell all religions rely on their followers willingly avoiding critical thinking, so it's not for me.

The spiked article is reporting about and then putting their own views around somebody going around putting posters up in Massachusetts. They didn’t just make it up.

This neatly illustrates if you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything.

There is such a stampede to be seen to be in possession of the ‘right’ opinion the truth is often trampled into the dirt.

Hands in the air owning up I have a massive problem with Islam but have issues with others as an Atheist. For those who say why not speak to nice Muslim X Y Z don’t change my views as nice Muslim X Y Z probably doesn’t really know much about their own religion as per nice people of other faiths like Christianity.

I know that racists exist. I know the far right exist. I’m not going to accept that I must be on the side of such people for having views I don’t consider to be on the ‘right’ at all. Being pro women’s rights and not liking homophobia is a ‘left’ thing to me.

What people fail to understand is not distinguishing me being critical about the religion of Islam from not liking Muslim people. I can perfectly separate the two. I can categorically be a friend with and have no prejudice to a person who says they’re a Muslim and still think the religion of Islam is a barbaric medieval misogynistic violent theology

The majority of people on the feminist board are gender critical. And feminists probably aren’t fans of Donald Trump. But for some crazy people being gender critical means you really are a Trump supporter. Or even more disingenuously some will say I know you’re not a Trump supporter but because you have such views you’re ‘enabling’ them.

So me being critical of Islam becomes me enabling the far right. People who voted are enabling racists and xenophobia (oh I know you’re not but you’re helping them).

What does this mean? Agree with me completely on everything or you’re a Nazi which sounds a bit Nazi ist for me. I don’t worry anymore and comfortable in my own skin but some people are so horrified about being perceived as nasty they bend themselves over. It’s why I find it amusing when people tie themselves in knots in their quest to be pure on every issue as the article intimates

Patriarchy exists in every society, every dominant culture, but manifests itself in v different ways. Dworkin once said on the left [liberal culture] women are public property, while on the right [inc religious communities] women are private property. I think that sums a lot up.

I've lived in Muslim majority countries (where Islam is influence on the law, but not a total theocracy) and the UK, differences which come to mind are -

Not objectification, hyper sexualisation in the same way, although sex is still important within marriage
Woman expected to do majority of domestic work, although this is shared with other female family members. If women work/ have property this is their own money, not for the family. Men's salaries are for the family. I personally haven't seen women being discouraged from careers, and now males are often less educated.
If a man initiates divorce, a woman will get a lot. But if vice versa a woman will get nothing.
Women are usually given custody of child only until adolescence in case of divorce

What people fail to understand is not distinguishing me being critical about the religion of Islam from not liking Muslim people. I can perfectly separate the two. I can categorically be a friend with and have no prejudice to a person who says they’re a Muslim and still think the religion of Islam is a barbaric medieval misogynistic violent theology

This is it exactly. I like most people but we all find ourselves existing in a patriarchal society. The system people live within and tend to uphold doesn't mean they are individually bad. But that we can criticise it and work together to change it.

I was hoping that a Muslim woman would post an answer to all of those women that seem to imply that Christianity is more oppressive than Islam. I am aware that the sign that was put up is goady and actually best ignored. On the other hand, I am a bit shocked at the ignorance, on a feminist forum, regarding Islam, and especially Sharia Law, and women's rights. How many of the women on here know or even care about sharia councils that have no legal standing in the UK but a great deal of power in Muslim communities? The following is taken from Hansard from a parliamentary debate about the compatibility of sharia law with the European Convention on Human Rights:
hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-05-02/debates/201F2DB0-FCE5-412F-AAB8-83CAA66F308A/ShariaLawCourts

Quote
I shall consider the general principles of sharia law in relation to the European convention on human rights, particularly article 14, on the prohibition of discrimination on grounds such as sex and religion, and article 5 of protocol 7 to the convention, which establishes equality between spouses in law. Other aspects of the convention may also have an effect.

'In Islamic family law, men have authority over women, because God has made the one superior to the other. It goes on to say that good women are obedient. It encourages women who stray from those norms to suffer punishment. In sharia law, adultery is strictly prohibited, and legal doctrine holds that the evidence must take the form of corroborating testimony from witnesses to prove an individual’s guilt. In the case of rape, which is seldom committed in public, there must be four male witnesses who are good Muslims, so punishing the rapist is difficult, if not impossible. In practice, women are obliged to be accompanied by men when they go out, which is not conducive to their independence.

Under Islamic law, a husband has a unilateral right to divorce, although it can be delegated to the wife and she can therefore exercise her right to divorce. Otherwise, she may initiate a divorce process but only with the consent of her husband, by seeking what is known as khula, in which case the wife forgoes her dowry. In cases where the husband has deserted the wife, has failed to co-operate with the divorce process or is acting unreasonably, the marriage may be dissolved, but only by a sharia ruling. While divorce by mutual consent is enshrined in Islamic law, the application must in this case come from the wife, since the husband can repudiate his wife at any time. There is also the question of equal rights regarding divorce arrangements, such as custody of children.

For the division of an estate among the heirs, distinctions are made according to the sex of the heir. A male heir has a double share, whereas a female heir has a single share. In addition, the rights of a surviving wife are half those of a surviving husband. Non-Muslims do not have the same rights as Muslims in criminal and civil law under sharia law. That applies, for example, to the weight attached to their testimony in court, which is discrimination on the grounds of religion within the meaning of articles 9 and 14 of the convention.'
End Quote

Many Muslim women are not happy about the influence wielded by the Sharia Council - pressurising women for instance to give up custody of a young child to a schizophrenic husband.

But, eh, why let ignorance stand in your way? Mohammed was married to a brave and stunning woman so everything must be rosy in the Islamic garden (this has got to be the biggest load of rubbish that I have read in a long time - great basis for a legal argument!) And for those women who think that societies established on Christian values are more oppressive then maybe you should submit yourselves to Sharia law?

I remember when there were roving gangs of Muslim immigrants groping and assaulting women at New Years celebrations across Europe the media and some feminists were bending over backwards to not actually address this.

We create an entirely open goal to the far right by NOT addressing it if we’re not talking about it on the left or the center. If we unpack the rape gangs in Rotherham et al, we also have to wrestle with the uncomfortable truth that some Muslim men perceive white women in particular as lesser and thus suitable targets for abuse, but there is such muddled thinking on the subject of racism that involves the view that white people cannot be the victims of racism because white people have more power. This isn’t necessarily true of poor white young women.

What of course mustn’t be allowed to happen is the singling out of only Muslim men when it comes to sexual abuse, as I’m sure we all know by now this is a problem across all cultures and ethnicities, but allowing a culture of silence around the topic does unfortunately undermine the advances of western civilisation wrt women’s emancipation and rights.

It boils down to the issues with creating sacred cows that cannot be talked about.

A few weeks back on this board I mentioned an issue with theory of mind as a barrier in discussions. I got very firmly and officially told off by another poster about being more sensitive to people with Autism (the fact I live with several people with Autism and I have the scars didn't count) and that I shouldn't speak out about it, it was only for people with Autism to speak and I didn't want to be seen as ablest did I?

We are busy at the moment as a society in creating these bits of discourse where no one may tread, where there are sacred cows that cannot be talked about, where certain subjects cannot be addressed by anyone other than named 'specialists', where in actual fact the more sensitive and difficulty and painful a subject is the more we should be talking about it as a society and addressing it. Rule of safeguarding: nothing is so bad we cannot talk about it.

Lol at a poster refusing to read Spiked.
So many falling for this brilliant troll (the posters). Tie yourself in knots why don't you.

And of course there are varying degrees of liberalness in any religion.

Can't say I was impressed though when I found out quite a few of the widows from the ChCh massacre could not use a bank card, had no bank account, and even had difficulty using money.

I'm allowed to critisize Fundy christians; ridicule them even, but not Islam.

I guess it depends what you think Islam says about women.

Quran 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.

What people fail to understand is not distinguishing me being critical about the religion of Islam from not liking Muslim people.

Well, you wouldn't necessarily be racist if you didn't like Muslim people either as 'being Muslim' doesn't necessarily denote ethnic classification. I don't like Jehova's Witnesses because I used to live near to one of their sites and they were always knocking on my bloody door!

I was hoping that a Muslim woman would post an answer to all of those women that seem to imply that Christianity is more oppressive than Islam.

Here I am. A Muslim woman.

and I get the impression that you think I will agree with you. I don’t.