Dawn Butler’s menopause policies

[FeminismandWomensFights]

Look I think it’s great if employers do more to accommodate the needs of women going through meno.

Not remotely convincing though coming from Labour and Dawn Butler. How will the employers even know who to target for this help- since in their book anyone who wants to can be a woman?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49781137

I’m a lifelong Labour voter and a menopausal woman so I should be all over this. I just feel totally patronised.

I retired early, but I was way past the menopause. I did it because my dh had retired.

Well, if you think about it, it’s not ‘natural’ for women to live long enough to go through the menopause. Left to nature, we’d all be dead long before the menopause kicked it.

Men’s greater risk of heart attacks is almost certainly lifestyle related, whereas the likelihood of a women going through the menopause isn’t. Now, a more compassionate workplace might result in fewer heart attacks, but it’s not going to result in fewer women going through the menopause, is it?

We need to be far more radical that this.

Could you say where these statistics came from please? It's just that I've never met or heard of a woman that's done this

I know someone with a local authority job who was 'managed out'. She had worked through 2 divorces and brought up 4 children, but the menopause caused problems. She used the compensation to retrain but is reliant on the children still at home to make ends meet.

We need better health care around menopause. So many GPs got little training in this area and have little experience of HRT since the millennium scares. We have NICE guidelines saying HRT is appropriate and responses from MRHA saying not.

Well, if you think about it, it’s not ‘natural’ for women to live long enough to go through the menopause. Left to nature, we’d all be dead long before the menopause kicked it.

That's not exactly true. In premodern societies, life expectancy is much lower due to child mortality, disease, childbirth, accidents etc. but a minority (typically 5-10%) do survive to 50 or more. And older women are particularly valuable in such societies; one of the biggest determinants of a child surviving is having a grandmother around. Menopause probably evolved because it was more useful (as far as gene transmission is concerned) for older women to be around for their grandchildren rather than risk further pregnancies (humans and whales are the only mammals that have menopause).

Men’s greater risk of heart attacks is almost certainly lifestyle related

Also not the full story. Men have a greater chance of heart attack up to age 60, but after that women catch up. This suggests there's some hormonal factor that protects women up to menopause and for a few years after. Lifestyle factors obviously influence heart health, but they're not the only thing.

We need better health care around menopause.

Absolutely!

Re sports injuries, in my old and current workplaces, people are always having weeks off due to sports injuries. And it is almost always men.

Of course no one in a million years would suggest that men are Risk to employ because of this, or that they should be unpaid, or anything. It's seen as normal and the way it is and also good because sports injuries = sports participation which is seen as good.

There are definite things in there.

Still bemused at the poster who wants me not to post links to articles in uk broadsheets without tracing and validating source info

On the basis that she doesn't personally know anyone who did this so it can't be right

Dread oh right, can one only make statements that are 100% the case, rather than broadly speaking true? I see .

I really don't think that kind of thinking actually helps women as a class, though it's a dream for men, as the choicey choicey individualistic feminists' thinking so often benefits them.

It's true that we didn't used to die young and the grandmother stuff is interesting.

On heart attacks. Men have many more but women are way more likely to die as we don't get diagnosed properly, as the symptoms men display are seen as the general symptoms. Women's symptoms are often quite different.

From a work pov this is good though as if you're dead it's not as burdensome as absence.

Cassian I think your post was open to debate tbh as the points were kind of just wrong.

it was a response to midgebaby's post above, should have tagged her.

I'm happy to debate but someone saying that what I said isn't exactly true because 5-10% wouldn't have died is, as far as I'm concerned, on a par with saying that as 5% of violent crime is committed by women, we can't say it's a male crime.

It's not the same at all.

The idea that people never used to live longer than 40 or something is widely held but not true.

If we ignore that women can and did live longer then we throw away the interesting points about how important older women were in the past, in terms of survival. Ignoring or invisibilising the contributions of older women is a sexist story as old as the hills. From burning women who knew stuff because knowledge is power, to modern day combination of ageism and sexism that makes things much harder for older women. If women are not valued, older women even less so. Hence oh well if they can't hack it they can leave, which overlooks the value they bring to the business in a variety of ways.

Which comes back to the point of the thread.

Older women in the workplace may have certain challenges relating to menopause which at the moment are not considered / discussed / in the radar. This leads to women struggling and potentially leaving. Employers will retain experienced employees more if they can support women who need it.

5 to 10% is not insignificant if you consider most people died in childhood and many others of childbirth or infectious disease. My point was that menopause isn't entirely a modern phenomenon (although obviously it's more common nowadays).

I'm not even sure how "dream for men" and "choicey choicey" follows on from anything.

*Still bemused at the poster who wants me not to post links to articles in uk broadsheets without tracing and validating source info

On the basis that she doesn't personally know anyone who did this so it can't be right*

Well I'm bemused that you went on to say that you believed that many women gave up work because of the M on no evidence at all. Just you believed it. And no, I wouldn't believe someone writing what is essentially an opinion piece in a broadsheet. If that is all you are basing the whole of your argument on I think you're on shaky foundations.

I specifically did not say that I thought you were wrong because I didn't know anyone in that situation. I asked you for the source of your information. That you have no solid basis for your opinions is not my problem.

So on mn casual chatting,

No one is allowed to post links to UK press without fact checking everything? Give over.
The only reason you questioned it was because in the massive research project you did of trying to remember what women you know had said, none of them had mentioned this :D

Youre being silly.

I get that you believe this is not a problem and that women should... Not sure what you think they should do. Oh yes. It's not a problem for anyone ever because you don't know anyone who has had issues.

Is it so hard to imagine that it might be an issue for some women?

My whole argument is that menopause is a fact of life for women. That it's been taboo to discus. That it can make things difficult for women in a host of ways. That some of them intersect with work and it would be good to have more recognition that it can be a prob, so that women can raise with work if they need to, and hopefully have something positive come out of it.

I mean christ what a crazy woman

no (again) .
I freely have admitted, all the way along, that my knowledge is partial and only based on my own experience.
On the other hand, you make extravagant claims based on one newspaper opinion piece. And what you feel.
Point out to me where I've said that it isn't an issue for some women (by the way, you can't. HTH)

assuming I'm the crazy woman...the Menopause has never been a taboo. Ever.
and you're whole argument has been that many women give up work because of it. Which you can't back up
If you prefer, I can start insulting you for having a different opinion from me, is that how you like to do it?

'..the Menopause has never been a taboo. Ever'

What!?!!

What about menstruation do believe theres a taboo around talking about that at work?

OK more odd views

The centre for ageing better picked up on it as an issue earlier in the year

www.ageing-better.org.uk/news/menopause-affects-half-all-workers-so-why-dont-we-talk-about-it

which has some useful stats

Im self employed which means even though I'm menopausal I can manage the impact of the symptoms because e.g. i dont have to get up at 7am after a nights insomnia and if im having a massive hot flush I can open all the windows. I dont know how I would manage if I had to do a more normal office based job

So I have been in many many meetings where someone says eg where's dave? And someone says, he broke his leg playing football he's off. Then some chat about football and when's he back and is it a bad break.

I have literally never been in a meeting where someone says where's Jean? Oh she's off this week, she's been having a lot of hot flushes and not sleeping well at all so she's taking some time and see if doc can do anything.

I suppose you'd say because the second never happens...

hrnews.co.uk/menopause-at-work-14-million-days-lost-a-year/

Hmmm kit19 that link doesn't agree with my preconceived ideas.

The site looks OK but you shouldn't believe everything you read. Please provide links to the original data and if like a phone call with the researchers please.

I don't know anyone who has had issues so it definitely can't be true.