Trudeau - help me out, I still don't get it

[pombear]

So Trudeau's now prostrating himself in front of the apology-altar for donning 'brownface'.

But men wearing 'womanface'. Not a problem. Not appropriation. Same political party, same political people.

-all horrified and apologetic at a man wearing 'brownface'.

But the minute men wear 'womanface' and state they're women, that's it. They're women.

Where's the difference here?

Is it the intent?

Is it the occasional-ness (ie not just a party, not just a weekend, in a week, or even a year in 'womanface' that's then deemed OK, not appropriation? Who gets to make the decision?)

Why are some men who like to wear clothes that are stereotypically associated with women, whio wear make-up that's stereotypically associated with women, not accused of the same appropriation as Trudeau has been?

Justin photo - worldwide media decimation and questioning
Jonathan Yaniv - most of the world's media "meh"

Because wearing blackface affects real people. The other only affects women.
Did you not get the memo about who matters and who doesn’t? Tut tut.

Men innit. If he’d dressed as princess jasmine there would have been no problem.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3696427-Trudeau-and-double-standards

Oops - sorry, thought I'd searched and hadnt seen an existing thread. Here's the existing conversation about the same thing! Will retire to bed and remind self to properly scan before posting!

Let me explain.

With blackface, members of a traditionally advantaged group take on the superficial characteristics of a disadvantaged group, who are oppressed on the basis of physical characteristics. This is often done in a deliberately exaggerated and mocking way.

With womanface, however, members of a traditionally advantaged group take on the superficial characteristics of a disadvantaged group, who are oppressed on the basis of physical characteristics. This is often done in a deliberately exaggerated and mocking way.

See, totally different.

nocoolnames, i like your style. 😁

nocoolnamesleft - well, when you put it like that...

nocoolnamesleft

Knocked it out of the park there!

I think there is in act a real answer to this. Not one that is true, but one that explains why people believe it.

Under the ID politics way of thinking, our identity isn't just a set of often almost arbitrarily chosen culturally conditioned material facts. It's an inner essence, who we really are, and something we own.

With transgender identity, the claim is that it is an inner essence that rightfully belongs to that person.

Blackface or other forms of appropriation aren't mainly wrong from an ID politics POV because they are mocking or disrespectful, or because it reduces them to some sort of racial stereotype. It would be seen as just as bad if a bunch of white people on an island put on Othello and someone blacked up, even if there was no POC on the whole island. It's seen as bad because you are claiming or appropriating someone's true essence.

Woman-essence, like African-American, or Asian essence, is something spiritual. There's nothing you can point to to say that someone belongs or doesn't, except what people happen to agree to.

Isn't there a difference between dressing up as someone different to you for the night at a themed party and pretending to actually be like that person for the purpose of mocking them or their culture etc?
I argue that the former shouldn't be an issue, when I do fancy dress it's generally someone I admire/aspire to be rather than an attempt to demean anyone.

Forstdad

No, not according to current thinking. I got an mass email from a friend last Halloween, but it was put together by a university, saying that you couldn't let your white kid dress as Black Panther for trick or treating.

Wait you couldn’t have a white kid wearing a black panther outfit? As in, not blacking up but just wearing the costume? Why?

It’s a superhero costume, there’s no possible cultural appropriation in wearing one spandex suit (black panther) over another (Spider-Man) surely?

Trudeau was in fancy dress as Alladin on an Arabian Nights themed do. I'd have thought wearing dark make up was in character and don't understand the fuss. It's not like he was doing a Black and White minstrels gig. If I was one of the 'three little maids from school' in the Mikado, should I not be made up to look like a Japanese woman?

Strikes me the media don't have enough to concern them if they're scraping the barrel with this story.

Trudeau is OK from what I've read about him.

I got an mass email from a friend last Halloween, but it was put together by a university, saying that you couldn't let your white kid dress as Black Panther for trick or treating.

I find this really interesting. Because as part of the hegemony, superheros are an archetype of the dominant culture. Therefore we needed Black Panther and Wonder Woman to also aspire to. See it; be it. Now it's not perfect because if DD wears Star Wars, she wears Han and Leia. But her friend, who is a boy, got crap for wearing the same and was told he should only have Han (wankers). So him wearing Leia and aspiring to be a Star Wars hero including Leia, is good.

So how is a white kid seeing Black Panther as a powerful hero to aspire to not a good thing? Doesn't that stop 'othering'?

Trudeau was in fancy dress as Alladin on an Arabian Nights themed do. I'd have thought wearing dark make up was in character and don't understand the fuss.

I thought the same. Similar to the girl who wore a Chinese dress to her prom.

There’s no nuance left in anything. Everything is black and white, but which group each activity belongs in is decided by a group of utterly irrational people.

I’m lost by why it’s even wrong to paint your face for an Arabian themed party.

Can’t we face paint any more? Is the fear of offending so great that we have lost all common sense?

Trudeau was in fancy dress as Alladin on an Arabian Nights themed do. I'd have thought wearing dark make up was in character and don't understand the fuss. It's not like he was doing a Black and White minstrels gig.

He did that too:
"Another photo has emerged showing Mr Trudeau, then a high school student, performing in a talent show, again wearing blackface. He was singing Day-O, a Jamaican folk song popularised by American civil rights activist Harry Belafonte."

But if he's dressing as an individual... I have to admit I don't get it too.
Although thanks to lloydbraun and nocool I am now clear as to why its completely different from men dressing as women. Errrr I mean women dressing as women. So women. Like Jessica yaniv.

OP, when you referred to 'womanface' I thought you meant drag. Leaving the whole trans aspect to one side, isn't men dressing in drag as offensive as people putting on blackface? I certainly find it so, and @nocoolnamesleft nailed it in her post from that aspect too.

I think 'womanface' is a kind of mask for women too, so wearing men make-up, having long feminine hairstyles etc, isn't the equivalent of 'blackface.'
Transgenderism is like a psychological womanface.

deydodatdont - I don't think anyone can be blamed for things they took part in, in school, presumably with help of teachers. If Trudeau was impersonating Harry Belafonte, presumably he tried to look like him. Belafonte was a great star in his day, I used to like him when I was a kid.

This is all ridiculous, people are entitled to criticise Trudeau for his policies or lack of them but accusing him of being racist is scraping the barrel.

It isn't about being or not being racist. It is about hypocrisy.

Tradeau throws stones from within a glass house.

Rachelover60

I'm not blaming him, I was just pointing out that it wasn't just the Aladdin costume as you stated.
It seems there was at least one other incident too.

Yes, I heard that too deydo. Like your name!

I've never taken much notice of Trudeau, I'll have to read up on him. If he is a hypocrite he has much in common with other politicians not in Canada!

The difference is half of all non-causcasian people are men - but no (actual) women are men. If all non-caucasian people were female, politicians would not see 'brownface' as a problem.

Why do you need to darken your skin to dress up as a character anyway? Who you are dressing as should be obvious by your costume.