Trudeau - help me out, I still don't get it

[pombear]

So Trudeau's now prostrating himself in front of the apology-altar for donning 'brownface'.

But men wearing 'womanface'. Not a problem. Not appropriation. Same political party, same political people.

-all horrified and apologetic at a man wearing 'brownface'.

But the minute men wear 'womanface' and state they're women, that's it. They're women.

Where's the difference here?

Is it the intent?

Is it the occasional-ness (ie not just a party, not just a weekend, in a week, or even a year in 'womanface' that's then deemed OK, not appropriation? Who gets to make the decision?)

Why are some men who like to wear clothes that are stereotypically associated with women, whio wear make-up that's stereotypically associated with women, not accused of the same appropriation as Trudeau has been?

Justin photo - worldwide media decimation and questioning
Jonathan Yaniv - most of the world's media "meh"

Black face is massively racist. The roots of where it comes from is so offensive there is no way to nicely do blackface. If you look at all of the original stage productions of blackface there is no 'nice' black face and continuing to do that is just a kick in the teeth to anybody. But there is plenty of drag which is respecting idols and women. Just because some can be deemed as offensive doesn't mean it all is. The same as comedy, drag queens are not 'I'm dressing up as a woman because I hate women and want is all to laugh at how ridiculous and stupid woman are' which was the intention of the original blackface.

A young lad I know once went to a Mother’s Day themed fancy dress party dressed as me (one of the few people he knew who was a mother, not counting his family).

I only found out about it on the Monday morning when he bashfully came into the studio sporting many, many sharpie drawn tattoos, having been unable to adequately wash them off.

There is a metaphor in there somewhere.

Maybe if people got stuck in blackface/woman face and we’re unable to switch back when the fun was over they’d be less inclined to do it?

For the record, I thought this situation hilarious, but it was meant in a flattering way, and apart from the permanent marker tattoos, he hadn’t changed his appearance in any other way!

It's actually a bit worse than typical blackface because he, apparently, was supposed to be dressed as an Arab character.

And Arab men just aren't that dark. Though they tend towards dark hair and olive skin, I've taught Arab teenage lads with dark blonde hair and blue eyes.

So Trudeau wasn't just being massively offensive and crude towards people of African descent, he was also being incredibly offensive and culturally block-headed about Arab people.

It kinda beggars belief really.

Was there not an accusation of improper behaviour towards a female reporter made against Trudeau a while ago? What happened with that one was it swept under the carpet. Anyhow, I find him a fair bit of a slime ball.

And Arab men just aren't that dark

Thank goodness it isn't just me who was thinking, but that's blackface not Arab face!

I am always confused by North American ideas of race. Even more so when they try to apply them to other parts of the world. I think it is a facet of American cultural hegemony and find it deeply unhelpful.

Yes, exactlyTrudeau would have looked pretty Aladdin-ish without whipping out his make-upbut I guess you can't fault the man for not making the most of his Product. I completely agree that it is 100 percent ridiculous to say that it is not offensive for a man to do blackface (which it totally is) but that it is then fine to stick chicken breasts into a man sized bra, wear a wig and a miniskirt and call himself Miss Lula.

If I was one of the 'three little maids from school' in the Mikado, should I not be made up to look like a Japanese woman?

If you dressed up in a traditional Japanese costume such as a kimono, fine. If you altered your facial appearance to give yourself 'slanted' eyes, not so fine.

Trudeau did the equivalent of the latter. In fact, he did worse because as other posters have said, Arab men do not have coal-black skin (does anybody?) There is a lot of variation in their appearance, not surprising given how vast the Arab world is, but many if not most would easily pass for Turkish, Italian or Greek. He would have fit into the theme very well by just coming in costume, like the other guests did. Why the need to blacken his skin?

Having said that, I doubt Trudeau is a racist. I reckon he's just a spoilt pretty boy who's had every privilige handed to him on a plate - born into a wealthy family, good looking, extremely well-connected etc. I reckon he has - or had - no clue whatsoever how crass his behaviour was. But given from his very unambiguous apology, it does seem he may have belatedly learned.

I am always confused by North American ideas of race. Even more so when they try to apply them to other parts of the world. I think it is a facet of American cultural hegemony and find it deeply unhelpful.

Completely agree.

In American history and even in the present day, sadly, the defining faultline is along racial lines, specifically between blacks and whites. That just isn't the case elsewhere. Not saying there isn't racism just about everywhere because obviously there is, but it expresses itself in different forms and other divisions, such as religion or in the case of Britain, class, are often more significant.

There is a tendancy among many Americans to believe that what is true for America must be true everywhere else. Not all Americans think this way, obviously, but a good many do and it leads to huge misunderstandings.

Not saying there isn't racism just about everywhere because obviously there is, but it expresses itself in different forms

Yes, this is the problem.

I once felt moved to complain to Coursera during an Archaeology MOOC about a US based course member constantly diverting discussions onto issues of race, which weren't relevant to the course anyway, and which made no allowance for the experience of people from other parts of the world. She just would not, or could not, accept that white people might ever have been subject to ethnicity based discrimination no matter how many people pointed to the numerous historic examples. Nor could she see that black or Asian people had ever played the oppressor role, not even when numerous African people gave her explicit examples. It was truly bizarre to see how inflexible a person's thinking can be.

This book is very good. Academic look at why Transgender is culturally accepted but Transracial is not. Uses the reactions to Rachel Dolezal and Caitlin Jenner who both 'came out' within a relatively short space of time

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans:_Gender_and_Race_in_an_Age_of_Unsettled_Identities

If you dressed up in a traditional Japanese costume such as a kimono, fine. If you altered your facial appearance to give yourself 'slanted' eyes, not so fine.

The problem I have with this way of thinking is that to me, it seems to take a particular set of physical characteristic and sets them up as defining what sort of person you are. Yes, in some or many cases those are things that have been picked out by others as defining and its been a problem. But the truth of the matter is that these definitions of "race" are arbitrary distinctions.

For example, say someone is dressing as Michael Jordan. It's ok to make yourself look tall, or bald, but not darker skinned, but fundamentally all are just particular physical characteristics. Skin colour is given more significance because its part of something we call race. And race is something that we invent in order to discriminate. Ending racial discrimination requires ending the idea of race.

I cab see that some people might think that costumes etc that depict race instead draw more attention to it, sometimes that's the point and that's negative. I also think though that creating strong social taboos around what we call racial features is coming mostly from the perspective of solidifying our idea of race and using it as a starting point, and seeing it as an essential part of us. I think to deal with this you have to really differentiate based on the situation.

But the truth of the matter is that these definitions of "race" are arbitrary distinctions

Well no, they're not. If I show you a picture of, say, Marie Kondo you will know instantly and unambiguously that she is Japanese, or at least East Asian. If I show you a picture of, for example, Idris Elba you will similarly know without question that he is of African origin.

It's ok to make yourself look tall, or bald, but not darker skinned, but fundamentally all are just particular physical characteristics.

Come on! Surely you know you're being highly disingenuous here. It's all about context. If Trudeau goes under a sun bed to look darker that's fine (not so great for his skin though) but this was an 'Arabian Nights' competion. He was clearly blackening his skin in order to 'look like an Arab' even though many Arabs have skin no darker than Trudeau himself. And even if they did, why the need to 'blacken up'? He would have fitted into the theme very well just by wearing the costume, like the other guests did.

So there's no doubt this was an incredibly stupid and crass thing for an educated, grown man from a political family to do. Not saying he should resign or anything like that, but there's a reason why 'black face' is a thing.

IcedPurple

They are arbitrary in terms of the importance we give them. Why is the category "Arab men" more significant than "bald men". Why is the fact that a particular basketball player is tall or bald ok to copy for a costume, but not something that relates of his ethnicity. Why do we accept the racial construct at all? Why is it significant that he is black, but not that someone is French or Irish? It's because we've decided to make it important, pick it out in a different way. And the reason for that historically was to allow us to designate certain groups of people as subjects for discrimination. That's why it was made to occupy such a different place than bald or tall - those weren't useful or necessary for that purpose.

I would argue that apart from the identity politics basis, which I don't subscribe to, it's not intrinsically wrong to change your skin tone to play a role, in a film or on stage or even for a party necessarily. It's not intrinsically different than a gay actor playing a straight man, or a Native actor playing a Mexican. I'd say the same about a man playing a women or vice versa (as KD Lang once did in a film.) Idris Alba can go to town and play Winston Churchill as far as I am concerned, if it can be convincing to the audience. It could be if it's done in a way that is about denigrating people, perpetuating false stereotypes, or that kind of thing, it's bad. The role then would be bad no matter who did it. But it's not the act of changing your appearance that is wrong.

As far as the weird black face that Trudeau used. I don't know what that was about, my initial thought was that it was a bad costume. I've since thought that there has been a tendency in recent years to cast certain parts that would really have been Arab or Berber ethnicity with with people who clearly aren't from those groups at all. (Think Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood.) Or alternately, you used to see in older kinds of settings where people like Moors were shown as being very dark skinned, and Trudeau's make-up looked a lot like that sort of thing.

Anyway, I don't think JT has ever had an original thought in his head. He did what people thought was ok in his circle then, and now he does what people think is ok too, and that's about as far as his little brain stretches itself.

They are arbitrary in terms of the importance we give them. Why is the category "Arab men" more significant than "bald men". Why is the fact that a particular basketball player is tall or bald ok to copy for a costume, but not something that relates of his ethnicity. Why do we accept the racial construct at all?

But you've said it yourself, haven't you?

People have been - and are - discriminated against and persecuted for the colour of their skin.

They are not persecuted for being tall or bald.

So for a white man to 'blacken up' in a deliberately exaggerated way as a kind of 'joke' isn't something neutral in the context of centuries of persecution of dark-skinned people. I genuinely don't see how you cannot understand that.

Or alternately, you used to see in older kinds of settings where people like Moors were shown as being very dark skinned, and Trudeau's make-up looked a lot like that sort of thing.

Well yeah, in the 1950s or maybe a bit later. In the era when The Black and White Minstrels were prime-time entertainment, and kids played with gollywogs. Those things have fallen from favour now. For a reason.

Anyway, I don't think JT has ever had an original thought in his head. He did what people thought was ok in his circle then, and now he does what people think is ok too, and that's about as far as his little brain stretches itself.

I agree with you there. A pampered pretty boy, all style and no substance.

The trouble is Justin Trudeau is a man who aged 29, who was a teacher at the time in 2001 didn't understand why this might be offensive.

I repeat. In 2001 a man in a profession like this, didn't understand why dressing up in brown face was offensive.

It's not the 1970s here. And he wasn't in a profession where he sensitivity to race wasn't well talked about.

I think it's safe to say that he likes certain band wagons and doesn't really give a shit about minorities unless it's politically in his interests.

He's still a middle aged white man with the same old prejudices trying to pretend he hasn't got them.

Didn't he do it three times not just the once too?

Absolutely no awareness of the world outside his bubble. None.

I just think we're at the same stage now as when blackface was done routinely. The minority were pissed off, but the people doing blackface didn't get the offence.

Women are the minority and the men/woke don't get the offence. We have to make them see it. That's our job 😕

Was blackface done routinely in 2001?

Just y'know checking my memory on this isn't warped and that it was pretty fucking unacceptable even then.

The hegemonic attitude to race and ethnicity reflected by Trudeau reminds me of a Guardian review years ago about a Kusturica film. The reviewer, a rather well-known chap, felt the film was unbelievable because the female Bosnian Muslim protagonist was blonde.

He obviously believed that no Muslim women in Bosnia could possibly be fair and blonde haired, and felt the director was just wrong to cast a blonde woman in such a role, despite the director in question being from a Muslim Balkan background himself and someone who obviously knew the region far better than the reviewer.

It seems to people like Trudeau, Arab men cannot possibly look anything other than the other end of the skin colour spectrum to himself, just as to that film reviewer, a Muslim woman couldn't possibly be blonde.

It's all very colonialist, and I think it is this aspect that bothers me quite deeply.

Definitely not! I'm about the same age as Trudeau and no way in hell would I have worn 'blackface' then, or even long before then. I don't think it's been acceptable in 'polite society' since the late 1970s or so.

Why is it significant that he is black, but not that someone is French or Irish?

This, Goosefoot, is exactly the North American assumptions about race I was referring to earlier.

Where I come from anti-Irish bigotry is a massively bigger issue than anti-black bigotry.

'We' haven't decided only skin colour matters. Some other people in some other part of the world have and then imposed 'their' view of what matters on 'us'.

IcedPurple, they do wear make up to look somewhat Japanese.
imaginethatproductions.co.uk/2016/10/07/images-for-the-mikado/
Same with Madama Butterfly:
imaginethatproductions.co.uk/2016/10/07/images-for-the-mikado/
...........

Anyway, however unwise Trudeau was with his fancy dress and make up, does anyone seriously believe he is a racist? He's very popular and Canada is multiracial/multicultural. I think he will be voted in again.

they do wear make up to look somewhat Japanese.

You posted the same link twice but anyway, I don't see that at all. They haven't drawn on 'slanty eyes' or anything.

Anyway, however unwise Trudeau was with his fancy dress and make up, does anyone seriously believe he is a racist?

I don't think he's racist. I do think he's stupid, arrogant and spoiled.

As for him being 'very popular' while admittedly I don't follow Canadian affairs closely (does anyone?) from what I've heard he is certainly not 'very popular', just the least bad of the available options.

Is it for white people to define racism? How is that any better than men declaring what's misogynistic? That's not aimed at anyone in particular and I don't know the inner thoughts of Trudeau but I can't imagine anyone who wasn't racist (a lot of people are unconsciously so) repeatedly donning blackface by the 90/00s.