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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Does lying about contraception make it rape?

30 replies

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 19/09/2019 13:17

A man convicted of rape after lying about having a vasectomy is appealing his conviction

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-49734484

(Sorry if the link has worked properly)

My instinct is that morally this is rape. I will be interested to see if they decide it is legally rape.

OP posts:
Juells · 19/09/2019 13:39

In what way is it different to the case against Julian Assange? Wasn't he accused of pretending to use a condom, something like that? I'd consider it rape.

thirdfiddle · 19/09/2019 13:51

I don't find I have any moral sense of what should be designated rape or not. To me that is a legal distinction.
Should it be a crime? Yes I think so if done deliberately to entrap someone.
Is it as bad as forcing your partner or a stranger to have unprotected sex at knife point? No I wouldn't say so.
Whatever it is, I'd say it is a more severe offence if a man does it to a woman (putting her health and ultimately life at risk) compared to if a woman does it to a man. But still a despicable thing to do either way.

happydappy2 · 19/09/2019 13:52

I don’t think it is rape but it is definitely sex under deception. (Which might in legal terms equal rape.) either way he behaved appallingly

BertrandRussell · 19/09/2019 13:54

It’s not sex the woman has consented to, so it’s rape.

Juells · 19/09/2019 13:54

compared to if a woman does it to a man.

If the woman gets pregnant it can have a life-long impact on the man as well, though.

Crockof · 19/09/2019 13:56

Hmm so if a women says she is on the pill but forgets to take it is that rape? After all the man will think she can't get pregnant

Juells · 19/09/2019 14:01

Hmm so if a women says she is on the pill but forgets to take it is that rape?

That's not deliberate deception, any more than having a condom fail is.

bluebluezoo · 19/09/2019 14:02

Hmm so if a women says she is on the pill but forgets to take it is that rape? After all the man will think she can't get pregnant

This.

It’s tricky. A woman can force a man into having a child he doesn’t want if she deceives him about contraception.

A man can’t force a woman into having a child in quite the same way- she can choose a termination.

If it’s rape for one it should be rape for the other. Chances are it’ll be word against word though so chances of conviction slim?

BertrandRussell · 19/09/2019 14:03

Not rape because a woman can’r rape a man in English law. But certainly sexual assault if intent can be shown.
To be clear- intent is obvious in the case under discussion-he deliberately lied about having a vasectomy. He didn’t forget he hadn’t got round to it yet.

Crockof · 19/09/2019 14:03

Although just read the article and he is a particularly horrible human

bluebluezoo · 19/09/2019 14:03

Sorry didn’t see the “forgets to take it” bit..

If a woman deliberately tells a man she is on the pill/implant/contraceptive/sterilised when she isn’t then that is the same as a man saying he’s had a vasectomy if he hasn’t....

Heartshapedbox11 · 19/09/2019 14:12

I don't think its rape. It should be a crime, but not rape.

We put a certain amount of trust in our sexual partners. We have to make a judgment call or take responsibility for our own fertility and sexual health.

Taking off a condom is a bit different as that takes place at the time of intercourse. You have made a request about the type of sex you want and he has done it differently and forced an unsheathed penis into you.

A vasectomy or being on the pill does not have a bearing on the type of intercourse. It's a matter of trust violation not bodily violation.

walkinginawinterwonderland1 · 19/09/2019 14:19

How's it any different to all the women out there who tell the man they're on the pill/other form of contraception to trap the man into having a baby? It happens all the time. Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust and well it's the same here she could of took extra precaution. Sickens me.

Goosefoot · 19/09/2019 14:25

I wouldn't like to see this put in the same category as rape. In general I prefer a fairly clear and maybe some would say restricted way of defining rape. Certainly legally but also in regular conversation. I don't for example like descriptions of anyone being paid for sex as being raped, or talking about a 15 year old being married in the 2nd century as being rape. I think the tendency to class all types of sexual exploitation or wrongdoing as reductive and ultimately it obscures things.

I think the sex with deception description as the most accurate. Though I suspect it would only be something that more extreme examples would be seen in the courts or as a crime. If we rounded up all the people who ever said they were using bc when they weren't I think it would be a large number of people, and a lot of them might even be married.

Juells · 19/09/2019 14:27

Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust and well it's the same here she could of took extra precaution.

So you're saying that it's unfair of people to say "well he should of used condom", but the woman in this case "could of took extra precaution". Trying to follow, but can't. PP are saying that it's not right when women do it, either. Both are wrong.

Wtfdoipick · 19/09/2019 14:32

The woman in this case did take extra precaution, she took the morning after pill but still ended up pregnant and had to terminate. This is rape because she did not have the ability to consent to the sex due to the deceit. He also knew full well she would not consent in these circumstances.

Crockof · 19/09/2019 18:00

But she would have presumably consented to sex with a condom.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 18:21

A vasectomy or being on the pill does not have a bearing on the type of intercourse.

Yes it would. I would be a lot more willing to have unprotected vaginal sex with a man who had a vasectomy than one who didn't. A vasectomy wouldn't affect my view of unprotected oral sex.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 18:28

Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust

Oh dear, this bullshit again.

If he trusts her, it's OK for him to dump the entire burden of contraception onto her? No, it isn't. Why should she take the Pill and quadruple her risk of having a stroke because he "shouldn't" (according to you) have to wear a condom?

I spy, with my little eye, male sexual entitlement in your post.

walkinginawinterwonderland1 · 19/09/2019 19:13

@bd67th I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Both are wrong and deceiving. And I'm saying when a woman LIES and says she's on the pill to trap man, it's disgusting. The only way you could justify this behaviour, is if your the awful type of person who does this. I'm a female who has seen this happen time and time again.

LordRandallXV · 19/09/2019 19:26

Both are wrong and deceiving. And I'm saying when a woman LIES and says she's on the pill to trap man, it's disgusting. The only way you could justify this behaviour, is if your the awful type of person who does this. I'm a female who has seen this happen time and time again.

I strongly suspect this happened to a friend of mine. He was dating a girl who was supposedly on the pill but suddenly became pregnant and then almost immediately broke things off. He then bumped into a friend of hers who said something to the effect of 'I'm so happy for her, she's been trying to adopt for ages'. 🤔

He's now paying maintenance for a child he absolutely didn't want, but he loves her to bits and says now that it's the best thing to ever happen to him.

But I still think she was bang out of order.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 19:55

winterwonderland I initally interpreted "Then you get people say 'well he should of used condom' which shouldn't be the case if your with someone you trust" as meaning that men in established relationships shouldn't have to use condoms because it's the job of the woman to use contraception. This is a stance that I object to very strongly.

I suspect, based on your reply to me, that you actually meant that people should be able to trust their partners not to lie about their contraceptive use. That stance, I agree with wholeheartedly. If a woman doesn't want to or can't use contraception, she should be honest about it.

bd67th · 19/09/2019 20:05

If a woman doesn't want to or can't use contraception, she should be honest about it.

The whole thread is about a man doing this though. The big question is, how far can the State legislate to mandate ethical sexual conduct? A cheater puts his/her long-term partner at risk of STIs and doesn't disclose this fact. Does that invalidate the partner's consent?

bd67th · 19/09/2019 20:09

Questions about whether lying about a vasectomy is rape fall into that wider question of how and if we legislate for sexual ethics.

If I wasn't foolishly posting whilst tired all three of my posts would have been one long one.

TeacupDrama · 19/09/2019 20:09

A vasectomy is different to being on the pill or using a condom because even used properly there is a small failure rate so someone could be on the pill and still get pregnant, which is again different to saying i'm taking the pill when actually they are not or I'll use a condom when actually they don't or they remove it prematurely
with a vasectomy you expect there to be zero chance of getting pregnant so unprotected sex may put you at risk of STD's but not pregnancy
sex with a condom or using the pill still has a tiny risk of pregnancy and doesn't protect against all STD's
so if someone says I've had a vasectomy 2 years ago you might assume zero risk of pregnancy based on that statement however if someone said they were on the pill you would also know that if not taken properly or someone was sick or on antibiotics or even just bad luck there is still a tiny chance of pregnancy so either you take that chance or you use another form of contraception too
lying about sterilisation is worse as it gives a completely false sense of total security but lying about any form of contraception is really bad and undermines trust, you should be able to trust your partner